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Episode 80: The Andy Serkis Planet of the Apes Trilogy (with Adam LeClerc)

We explore Caesar's domain with good friend Adam LeClerc.

Show Notes

Motion capture apes? A plague caused by a failed Alzheimer’s cure? James Franco, Gary Oldman, AND Woody Harrelson?!?! Looks like the boys are talking about THE ANDY SERKIS PLANET OF THE APES TRILOGY! With the help from their close friend (and local Planet of the Apes aficionado) ADAM LECLERC, Logan and Andy must survive the grand story of Caesar as they tackle 2011’s Rise of the Planet of the Apes, 2014’s Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, and 2017’s War for the Planet of the Apes. How does this trilogy reinvigorate the classic sci-fi franchise? Is there a secret masterpiece among the trio? How likely will the episode devolve into pant-hoots throughout the recording? Find out on this primal new episode of ODD TRILOGIES!

Episode Transcript

[00:00:19] Logan: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Odd Trilogies with Logan and Andy. I’m Logan Sowash.

[00:00:23] Andy: And I’m Andy Carr.

[00:00:24] Logan: And on Odd Trilogies with Logan and Andy, we take a trio of films, whether tied by cast and crew, numerical order or thematic elements, and we discuss the good, the bad, and the weird surrounding them.

And today we have a special occasion, because in honor of the latest monkey film, Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes, being released, we have decided to bring one of our very good friends, great friends, Adam LeClerc, back again for his third time. He has come here to tackle the Hobbit trilogy. He has also tackled truly, probably his favorite trilogy of all time, the Bionicle trilogy, as well as today’s topic, which is Andy Serkis’s Planet of the Apes trilogy, which entails, in case you don’t know, 20 eleven’s rise of the Planet of the Apes, 20 fourteen’s dawn of the planet the Apes and 20 seventeen’s war for the Planet of the Apes. You can talk none of them if you want to.

[00:01:14] Adam: I’m ready to chimp out.

I was holding in so many pant hoots.

I was holding a lot of chimpanzees ecstasy the whole time you were doing that intro. Happy to be here. I’m happy to be here.

[00:01:28] Logan: The little panhoot I just did just peaked so hard. It was so little. Yours is fine. Yours is a regular level. Mine.

[00:01:35] Adam: Just before we move on, I think pant hoot is something we probably need to define. It’s the sound that chimps make. You know, they’re making their monkey sound. It’s like.

[00:01:47] Logan: Yeah, like, I think everyone out there at one point has been invited to a coordinated chimp event or random chip or random chip events.

[00:01:54] Adam: Kinda like a flash mob.

[00:01:55] Logan: Yes. Usually happens at theme parks for us when we do that.

[00:01:59] Andy: Well, and, Adam, you and I were talking, I don’t know, some point in the last year, maybe, about how, you know, just the tragedy that it is that humans possess the ability to pant. Who? And we don’t take advantage of it.

[00:02:15] Adam: We do, I’m pretty sure.

[00:02:17] Andy: I mean, we take advantage of it, but, like, the greater society.

[00:02:19] Adam: One of the conversations I had with your wife, probably. So you were not married at the time, obviously, was about how humans can pan.

[00:02:29] Andy: Yeah.

[00:02:29] Adam: And I proved it to her in that moment. And the fact she’s still with you, knowing I’m in your life. Yeah, kind of phenomenal.

[00:02:36] Andy: She still tells that story, too. She remembers getting hooted at.

[00:02:39] Adam: So to the listeners out there, give a good pan hoot, you can go, but way louder than you think you can. I’m not gonna peek out the mic.

[00:02:49] Logan: Yeah, I’ve already done that pan hoot, and I already.

[00:02:54] Adam: The human body is fascinating, and it’s ape likeability.

[00:02:58] Logan: I think most people just kind of assume pan hooting is another term for cat calling, and that’s not what. That is not the same thing. Pan hooting is pants hooting. Is that what you said?

Yes. But today we are pant hooting, and we will continue to pan Hoot through this episode because we have been. We had this episode on the docket for a while, especially since Kingdom was announced, because not only is this trilogy fascinating, just as actual, just as the quality of their films, it’s also the fact that it’s like, this is a part of a franchise that has such a fucking odd history from the beginning, from its initial end in the seventies to when it comes back in the two thousands with fucking Tim Burton’s remake then coming back in 2010s with these three films and then arguably having just truly one of the weirdest kind of, you know, perceptions socially just because of the fact that it’s. Not only are these the modern planet of the Apes films, not only are they having to top one of the most iconic Sci-Fi films ever made in american history, but they’re also good. Like, Spoiler Alert, all three of these films are good to varying degrees. Of course. We all have a personal favorite that I think we’re all on the same line for, and I think that’s dawn is all of our favorites, easily. But again, it’s shocking. And I think a lot of people were probably shocked when the first film came out, because to give a little bit of context about Rise, initially, Rise was a spec script from 2006 that was pitched to 20th Century Fox by, I believe it’s Amanda Silver and Rick Jaffa, or Jaffa, who are producers as well as, I believe, involved in. I think they got credit in Kingdom for, based on care, based on characters created by. So, like, they’ve been involved in some sort of way, credits wise, since rise. But they basically pitched this script of 20th Century Fox five years after the Tim Burton film came out. No one really wanted to pick it up until 2008, 2009, when there was the three powerhouses that no one could have expected for an apes film, which is Andy Serkis, who’s probably the most believable, but still on the height of Golomania in some way, shape or form. The fact that man is going, fuck it. I want to be an ape.

[00:05:22] Adam: And really, he’d already played.

[00:05:24] Logan: He did. He played King Kong. He’s right.

[00:05:26] Adam: He was King Kong in Peter Jackson’s film. So there was already that precedent of like, yeah, you can convincingly play.

[00:05:34] Andy: He was basically the poster child for motion capture performance at that.

[00:05:39] Logan: Yeah.

[00:05:39] Andy: I mean, still is. I still think.

[00:05:41] Logan: I still think about when they, when they won VFX. I think it was return of the king. And it has Andy Serkis dissect the award and then Gollum steals the award from him.

[00:05:51] Adam: It was the MTV.

[00:05:52] Andy: Was it MTV?

[00:05:53] Logan: Okay. I thought it was Oscar.

[00:05:54] Adam: It was a little popcorn bucket.

[00:05:56] Logan: Oh, okay. That’s funnier. That’s even funny.

[00:05:59] Adam: And Gollum swears a lot. C word or something.

[00:06:03] Logan: The fact that Weta did all the animation just for the MTV movie awards shows how much awards season has changed.

[00:06:10] Adam: We used to be in hell tree.

[00:06:11] Andy: We used to be used to build things.

[00:06:14] Adam: We used to build things.

[00:06:16] Logan: But, yeah, so it’s Andy Serkis and then there’s director Rupert Wyatt, who is the director of Rise but not the dawn or war. And then the third person that really, I think, brings it together for 20th Century Fox, even though he’s just the lead in the film. In a very odd lead for a film like this.

[00:06:35] Adam: Very.

[00:06:35] Logan: And that is James Franco.

Those three men, basically, their involvement in some way, shape or form makes 20th Century Fox go, okay, fuck it. Let’s go for it. Let’s go for it. The budget is under $100 million. They’re basically pitching to them, hey, we’re going to do imagine golem, but, like, at least 30 or 40 of them in certain shots. And they didn’t have an aneurysm. When they heard that, they found a way to convince them through I no surprise Serkis his relationship with Weta and doing, you know, things like ape school for eight performances as well as just kind of, you know, hounding out the tech and trying to figure out how to make it work on a budget that is not gonna destroy a company to put all its money into. And what we get is a first film in a trilogy that is, I would argue, is probably the most convoluted and forgettable of the three. Until a certain point. Yeah, like, there’s a certain point in the film where it really turns from, this is good, but I don’t love this. Until.

Which we’ll get to later an iconic moment where it’s like this either turns it for you and you’re like, I’m all in.

[00:07:42] Andy: Yeah.

[00:07:43] Logan: Or it’s like, oh. Was not expecting that.

[00:07:46] Adam: And you have to understand, I mean, I’ve got a buddy, Robert, and he. He has.

I mean, he’s. He’s about ten years my senior, and he has been a classic apes fan or apes fan his whole life. His whole life, pretty much. And that ten year seniority he has on me allowed him to be way more active on the Internet in a very crucial time, in a weird time in apes history. There was such a long time. Even before the Burton film in, like.

[00:08:23] Logan: 2001, is that when I went, yeah, 2001.

[00:08:25] Adam: 2001.

There was such a long time where nobody knew the future of apes. Everybody knew. I mean, before Star wars.

[00:08:34] Andy: You mean the future of the franchise or the future of the story?

All of it.

[00:08:40] Adam: All of it. All of it, yes. Essentially, there was this huge period of time after battle of the planet the Apes, which I believe is 73 or 74.

[00:08:53] Logan: 73, I think.

[00:08:53] Adam: 73, yeah. Battle of the plan of the Apes happens, and then until 2001, there’s not a plan of the Apes movie, and.

[00:09:03] Logan: There’S a tv show and there’s comics and even a cartoon at one point.

[00:09:06] Adam: And the merch is, you know, selling off the. It’s selling like hotcakes. I mean, people love playing the apes still, but it is so unique because, I mean, it is the first multi sequel franchise.

Hollywood dynasty, basically. Pretty much, they crank these things out because they make so much goddamn money. But in the nineties and the late eighties, that is just a battleground of murdered ideas. Ideas, basically. Like, people are like, hey, Schwarzenegger, Peter Jackson, all these other people are thrown around, and then eventually Tim Burton happens. An inspired choice. The makeup looks great. It’s a stinker.

[00:09:53] Logan: Nobody really likes it, but it makes money, though. But it makes money.

[00:09:57] Adam: It keeps.

It. Keeps it relevant.

We are.

[00:10:03] Andy: People were still very interested after all that time.

[00:10:06] Adam: Ten years later, we get this. Uh, basically.

[00:10:11] Logan: You mean, it’s. It’s fascinating to think the fact that, like, both the Burton film and rise have. Have the similarity of having a miscast lead that has basically is either hurting the film, but it’s thankfully not killing the film thanks to a cast, or is hurting the film. But ultimately you find out, oh, Franco is not really the lead in this. He is human wise, but the reason why.

[00:10:35] Andy: You’re star power but not the main.

[00:10:37] Logan: Character, the reason why here is the reason why. The first thing of footage you get from Rise is the cursed looking ape looking side by side, the Caesar look. It’s like, that’s the first thing they ever look. It’s like you’re here for gollum you’re here for Serkis. You’re here to see post King Kong, post Gollum, no Jackson involved. This is a Serkis project, you know, through and through.

[00:11:00] Andy: Yeah.

[00:11:01] Logan: What the fuck is this guy gonna do with Planet of the Apes?

[00:11:03] Andy: Well, and it’s interesting looking at rise over a decade later and how much it feels like no knowing what this trilogy becomes. It’s interesting looking at this movie and seeing how 70% of it is this incredibly 2011 studio prequel. Like, yeah, a lot of absolutely, you know, perfunctory decisions in terms of the storyline and, like, like, undercooked dialogue and all that sort of thing. And like a half baked lead in James Franco, who’s miscast, but star power, why he’s there. And just kind of this, like, maybe you could argue, like, unnecessarily complex pseudoscience explanation for the Planet of the Apes.

[00:11:54] Logan: Yeah, that is.

[00:11:55] Adam: And one other part of that, that kind of is just, I don’t want to say ham fisted because I still like the movie, but I mean, yeah, if they kept rolling with it, it would be ham fisted. The references to the original movie.

[00:12:11] Andy: Yeah.

[00:12:11] Adam: Are the worst out of it.

[00:12:13] Andy: Well, they’re the most, like, sticker on.

[00:12:16] Logan: Yeah, yeah.

[00:12:16] Adam: Like, you’ve got Draco Malfoy screaming, it’s a madhouse. A madhouse. Like, when it’s not warranted at all. You’ve got references to the Statue of Liberty that are like, oh, whatever. You’ve got these references to the rocket, the Rocket, the Icarus rocket, which has Charlton Eston on it, allegedly and all that shit. I mean, there’s a lot of very heavy hand stuff that for the most part feels, at least to me, a classic fan of those movies. Very obvious.

But, yeah, it’s the least of the issues of the movie because it’s just set.

[00:12:57] Andy: Yeah, well, and it’s also, it also feels like a very studio prequel in the sense that it’s like, this clearly wasn’t. And I mean, it’s confirmed in kind of interviews and stuff that this wasn’t conceived as, like, a trilogy or like a beginning of a saga to fill in the gaps up to the first movie. It’s clear when you watch this, it’s like you could finish this movie. It gives you the little explanation kind of hook for, like, oh, how this leads us to the original Planet of the Apes. And, like, you could, it could have just been that movie, just that movie by itself, just a totally self contained thing.

[00:13:41] Adam: And it absolutely could be. But I think what makes it so different? And it’s hard to see, I don’t know, over a decade on, but my parents knew about the plan of the apes sequels. Did they watch any of them? No, but maybe they caught it on tv a few times or something. I don’t believe they watched them until I became obsessed. But Caesar is a character in the original movies. Yeah, he is the same character in many ways. He is the character who raises apes out of bondage or what have you to become a power. And I think that precedent, it’s, again, my friend Robert who was following the forums and stuff like that, hearing, oh, script leaks of Rise of the apes and all that. It’s like, oh, Caesar’s in it. Oh, my gosh, they’re gonna do Caesar again and stuff like that. But I mean, obviously Roddy McDowell had been dead. Like.

[00:14:53] Logan: Yeah, that point.

[00:14:54] Adam: We played Cornelius and Caesar, Hollywood sexiest.

[00:14:57] Logan: Actor at the time.

[00:14:59] Adam: Gayest actor.

[00:15:00] Logan: Doesn’t mean he can’t be the sexiest.

[00:15:03] Adam: Did I stutter?

He’s both. But, I mean, there was this cultural baggage that came with how many goddamn sequels there are to planet the 8th. Yeah, but I mean, I remember watching it in theaters, as, you know, however old I was at the time. But, yeah, I had the exact same thoughts, Andy.

[00:15:30] Andy: It’s like, okay, yeah, I don’t remember. This is a feeling like, oh, here’s a new saga.

[00:15:34] Adam: How we get to Charlton.

[00:15:35] Logan: Yeah, yeah.

[00:15:37] Andy: Oh, that’s a cool way to kind of, like, I guess, add a preface chapter to the original. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:15:44] Logan: I think a lot of that also has to do with when you get into the gen Xers, you get into our, you know, our generation. Is the fact that, like, I think even. Is it Gen Alpha? Is that the.

[00:15:55] Andy: Yeah.

[00:15:56] Logan: Generation? I think better in school. Yeah, they. I think even they, in some way, shape, or form, just due to just cultural, you know, osmosis, have probably heard in some shape or form the ending of the Planet of the Apes because the original ending is so fucking iconic and maybe, but at the same time, with the new films, it could, you know, really bring that back compared to us, where it’s, like, weird.

[00:16:22] Adam: It makes plan of the apes iconic and present in their lives. I don’t know if the Caesar trilogy stands so paramount above everything else that I think it eclipses for newer audiences. For me, when I watched Rise of the Planet of the Apes for the first time, I was like, damn, that’s pretty good. I watched on of the planet the apes. I’m like, damn, this is incredible. I’m going to reimagine the sequels of that original movie.

I don’t think kids are getting that anymore.

[00:16:57] Logan: No, no, it’s not like that, because.

[00:16:58] Adam: It’S not just two new movies that have come out that make them be like, yeah, and there are all these other movies. Maybe I’ll check them out. It’s just like, oh, damn. That Caesar trilogy. Slaps. Let’s go back to that.

[00:17:10] Logan: Yeah, well, let’s.

[00:17:12] Andy: I will say my first exposure, my primary exposure to Planet of the Apes as a kid, I did see the movie when I was young, but before I ever saw the original Planet of the apes, I saw spaceballs. And there’s a scene at the end.

[00:17:27] Logan: That is the same for me in a way.

[00:17:29] Andy: Yeah, that was my natural osmosis of Planet of the Apes. And then, like, yeah, I never, I knew there were other Planet of the apes movies, did not explore them. And I feel like, if anything, any of the generations past us were probably even more disconnected because they’re not even watching spaceballs.

[00:17:49] Logan: No, no. I mean, I think that’s boomers.

[00:17:52] Adam: I mean, boomers were the target audience for plan of the apes. And I think it’s no coincidence that my parents are boomers. They’re born in both of them. They’re born in 57, and that is a solid nine years before plan of the apes comes out. And even though they weren’t fans, they brought it up. And when I watched that movie, Rise of the Planet of the apes, finally in theaters, it felt like a return. It felt almost like how I felt seeing force awakens in theaters. It was like, oh, dang. This nostalgic property that has so much iconography in the american lexicon, it’s back in the center stage. And what’s insane about Rise of the planet, plan of the apes is that it slaps.

[00:18:45] Logan: Yeah. People talk about it.

[00:18:47] Adam: The word of mouth of this movie.

[00:18:50] Andy: Like, when it releases.

[00:18:51] Adam: I mean, I remember seeing it. Yeah. And people were talking about, yeah, well, it’s because.

[00:18:58] Andy: Go ahead.

Okay.

Yeah, I mean, it’s.

It’s also, like, in addition to that kind of cultural, you know, bringing back this icon into the spotlight, it’s also, you know, like, we’re gonna talk about way more throughout this episode, the kind of the VFX achievement of it. It’s like we’re leading a movie. I mean, yes, we have James Franco for the first half of the movie, but, like, we’re ultimately leading a movie, anchoring a movie around a CGI chimpanzee and his chimpanzee friends. Like, and pulling it off. You know, he’s not even Gollum, who’s a kind of goofball character, a secondary character in Lord of the Rings.

[00:19:46] Adam: This is an animal that you.

[00:19:47] Andy: This is a real life animal who is bearing the pathos of the movie. Like, he’s the emotional center and. Yeah, and they pull it off. And I think that probably spoke to people. Even if even the people who are not initiated in filmmaking enough to, like, understand what they’re watching, they’re still like, yeah, what the fuck? I’m empathizing with this chimp. What? This is wild.

[00:20:10] Logan: Yeah, yeah, they are. They don’t. Yeah, it’s. It is fascinating, too, because it’s. It’s the fact that, you know, Rise has such a hurdle it has to both as a studio film as well as a plan of the Apes film. Because the fact that the Burton film, because in the Burton film, I think was like 60, 70 million and made about a 300.

[00:20:29] Andy: Yeah, I mean, it was a big deal.

[00:20:31] Logan: It made its money back and it was good.

[00:20:34] Adam: It looks good.

[00:20:35] Logan: I still think a Tim Roth ape every time with just like, fucking insane general fade. Roth fade.

But, like, it has, like, I knife, chip and shatter.

But I do not envy Wyatt, Silver, Jaffa, anybody involved in Rise, having to convince 20th Century Fox we are going to make what is supposed to kind of feel like a reboot, but isn’t. This is, in timeline, the earliest we have ever seen the Planet of the apes in some way, shape or form. We are creating that reason.

[00:21:13] Andy: His glasses up his mouth.

[00:21:14] Logan: Was it before?

[00:21:17] Adam: And this is what is so odd about Rise of the planet the apes, is that it is an alternative canon, the road that leads us to that original movie. Because the earliest, I suppose, if you go back from that original movie with Charlton Heston is escape for the planet the apes, where. And I’m not going to get into the lore of it, but it sounds crazy, the two main character apes get on a.

[00:21:51] Logan: They go back in time.

[00:21:52] Adam: They go back in time. They go back in time to the seventies, and they produce, you know, a child who is Caesar, who is an evolved ape from the future, who leads his ape brothers and sisters out of bondage.

[00:22:08] Logan: He always thought that was the alternate canon. Well, the rise film is kind of being like, we’re not saying we’re the main line, but we’re almost treating as such to almost give it a bit of reference, which is kind of help.

[00:22:21] Adam: And it’s so weird because rise does that the hardest. Yeah, you have references to the Icarus rocket, which is Tarlton Hessen’s rocket it is. You have that referenced. You have these very obvious callbacks and the lines. It is almost like this.

I wouldn’t say half assed, but it’s like they’re trying to toe the line between a. This new canon explanation of the rise of the planet the apes to also appeal to the old canon as well. It’s a very unique movie because I feel like dawn and war. Don’t worry about that at all. They. No, there’s this reverence to the original movie, but they don’t feel that they’re a slave to it. Kind of like rise does a bit of the time, right?

[00:23:14] Logan: Well, it’s. Yeah. Cause, I mean, it feels like rise a little bit. And whether this is studio interference or just the creators themselves worried that they couldn’t get the film off the ground if there wasn’t more human interaction.

[00:23:27] Adam: Yeah.

[00:23:27] Logan: But the first half of the film being mainly James Franco, Frida Pinto, David Oyelowo, John Lithgow. Like, you have such a strong human cast, all star, but honest to God, it is just, like, clearly there almost as set dressing for when the film gets really good, when it gives Caesar the time to shine. Because, to be honest, I don’t know.

[00:23:49] Adam: I feel that’s a bit of a disservice as John Lithgow.

[00:23:51] Logan: Well, Lithgow is good.

[00:23:53] Adam: Lithgow’s performance is phenomenal. And I remember I watched this movie with my father before his father died of Alzheimer’s, and he was moved by it then, and now he’s moved by it even more. I mean, there, I think Lithgow and that whole.

I mean, I’m seeing so many tweets about kingdom of the planet, the apes, and being like, this is all because James Franco wanted to cure Alzheimer’s. And that.

[00:24:21] Logan: Which is true. Which is true.

[00:24:23] Adam: It’s kind of funny. Weirdest, but. But it’s.

Man, does Lithgow sell it? You’re like, you see this man go through hills and valleys with his affliction and.

Yeah, yeah. Like, it completely validates Franco and doing human trials on his father because he’s like, no, that is. That is the strongest aspect, I think, of the human, human element of that story.

[00:24:53] Logan: It certainly is.

[00:24:54] Adam: And it’s the only thing that carries, I think, the beginning of the movie. He is fighting against time. He is fighting against this most foul generation of the human brain that we encounter.

[00:25:09] Logan: Because, yeah, to be honest, like, David Oyello has. Doesn’t get much to do. I love. I love David. Oh, yeah.

[00:25:15] Adam: But he kills it. He puts way more in it.

[00:25:18] Logan: Frida Pinto is criminally underused in this film.

[00:25:22] Andy: Yeah.

[00:25:22] Logan: To the point where, like, I don’t.

I think that’s the big thing about the human aspects of these films, too, is, like, I agree that lithgow is great, but if you put a gun to my head and ask me what their names are, like, human names, other than their actors names. I think his name is Charles, maybe. But even then, it is the situation.

[00:25:42] Adam: Viewers at home can look that up. I think his name is Charles. Charles. And if it is, that means I’m a real fan.

Is just a fair weather friend of Don the plague.

[00:25:53] Logan: Well, the thing about it, because, again, it’s just like. It just feels like they had to put that in there a little bit more just to feel like maybe people aren’t going to be into the thing. And then when they just go, no, fuck it, we got to go. We got to go all in. Which is when the scene happens with Caesar and he speaks for the first time. From that point forward, I feel like it’s a different film and a better film because of those choices. And then from that point forward, leads to dawn and war making some weird, bold, and in wars case, very dark choices that I don’t think would have happened if they had not just, you know, if they hadn’t committed towards the end of fries. Because before that, it seems. It’s pretty standard in terms of, like. Because at a certain point, it’s like Franco’s character could be so much more fascinating as like, a holy fuck. I’m basically the Frankenstein of killing humanity and creating something that I’ll never be able to not have my name on.

[00:26:50] Adam: I kinda love that.

[00:26:51] Logan: It’s not what you don’t like.

[00:26:54] Adam: I kind of like that it is this bizarre.

I don’t even know how to word it. It’s this bizarre byproduct.

[00:27:06] Andy: What is like, oh, the ape, the simian fluke.

[00:27:10] Adam: So, I mean, again, to anybody, I don’t know why you would be listening to this if you haven’t heard this, but to anyone who doesn’t know, the whole genesis of the plan, the apes in rise of the plan of the apes, is that James Franco’s character, Will, I think, is his name. Will. Will is trying to cure Alzheimer’s. His father’s got Alzheimer’s. He works at a company that does drug stuff that’s run by David, a yellow, fantastic actor. And what happens is that when they test it on chimps, one of the chimps gives birth to Caesar to the main character, of this trilogy, and he is heightened because of the drug in his mother’s blood. And essentially, then what happens is that. That this drug, which is a virus, more or less to fight Alzheimer’s and to improve the brain’s synapses and Alzheimer’s.

[00:28:08] Andy: Yeah, I think the way they kind of frame it is like it reverses or kind of reduces the brains, the degeneration of brain cells over time in basic. Well, right. But the goal is just to stop the degeneration. And what it ends up doing is kind of causing this regeneration, which not only heals damaged or missing cells, it also improves existing cells, which then, on.

[00:28:37] Adam: A person who has had their brain ravaged by Alzheimer’s, is an absolute plus. But to a animal so similar to us, like an animal, it is going to elevate their intelligence. And Caesar is that times 80, because he’s literally born with this.

And so, basically, what happens is there’s a worldwide pandemic because they push too hard with this.

[00:29:03] Logan: They make a version that’s a virus, because the first version is basically an antidote, but it doesn’t attack aggressive enough. So that’s when the second version happens, the one that Koba has, which is fascinating to think, too, especially with Don, the fact that Caesar’s growth comes from the antidote, while Koba’s growth comes from the virus. On top of, like, you know, the trauma that Koba goes through. But the virus is ultimately the version that he sneezes on. Tyler Labine, who Adam kept calling Paul Walter Houser while we were watching this out, and he is.

[00:29:34] Adam: Wait, that wasn’t Paul Walter.

[00:29:36] Logan: That is not Paul Walter Houser. That is Tyler Bean, who is, I believe, Tucker and Dale. Yeah, Tucker and Tucker and Dale versus evil. Or Dale. It’s either one of them. It’s a 50 50 shot. But yeah, the simian flu is. It is fascinating how, when it’s introduced in the film, like, in terms of, like, the very, very end of, like, where the pandemic is going to go.

[00:29:59] Adam: Does it even call the simian? Not yet, because, like, it is not so early. And it’s this.

It’s the credits of the movie that show you that Caesar attacks his neighbor because he’s going after his Alzheimer’s dad and basically infects this neighbor, who is.

[00:30:24] Andy: A pipe airline pilot.

[00:30:25] Adam: And that is implied to be patient zero. And the simian flu spreads throughout the world and kills probably, I don’t know, like, 90% of humanity.

[00:30:37] Logan: The pilot that has a very good, no bad day every time he shows up. On screen because he either loses a finger, gets attacked by Caesar or gets sneezed on and becomes another, or tries.

[00:30:47] Adam: To rightfully protect his children from a raving chimpanzee.

[00:30:52] Logan: Is that true? It’s true. It’s just funny.

[00:30:55] Adam: I know.

[00:30:56] Logan: He shows up, bad things happen.

[00:30:57] Adam: Yeah, he’s having the worst time over like a ten year period.

[00:31:02] Logan: It’s so funny.

[00:31:04] Adam: But rise to the planet the Apes is, I think its most controversial things are how it reframes apes media. It recreates the lore because those original sequels very bluntly put out how the plan of the apes comes about. Whereas this one is like those dont really mean the same, but that always their north star is that Hestan on the beach screaming at the Statue of Liberty. I mean, they are always moving towards that movie. Are they moving towards the sequels? Sequels? No. They are taking inspiration obviously from them.

[00:31:51] Logan: The thing about the plan of the Apes sequels is that the best ones have great ideas but are still just odd. They’re tonally inconsistent and also weird lineman.

[00:32:02] Adam: They see.

[00:32:03] Logan: They’re good. Again. Escape and conquest are a lot of.

[00:32:05] Adam: Fun in 1972, when you can buy that a man in makeup is a chimpanzee better than you can in 2024. It hits different.

[00:32:16] Logan: I believe that for sure. I mean, again, we went through, I think because this is the first time I’ve gone through the trilogy post watching the whole series. Because you basically, in college after Don had come out, you had basically Jeffrey dahmered me onto a couch of the Apes films. And then at that point, that’s when I realized, I don’t think I’d ever seen the original all the way through. It’s phenomenal because it’s fucking iconic enough that it’s like my brain goes, oh, you blew it all up. Like, I know the end. See maniacs and then it goes through just a speedrun beneath the planet the apes, which is absolute dog shit and practically nearly killed the franchise to a degree.

[00:32:55] Adam: Then escape at the plan, the escape.

[00:32:57] Logan: Which starts off kooky and fun to a degree and then ends on one of the darkest fucking notes in any of the fucking films. And then conquest, which is the most, I would say the most fascinating of the sequels because of just paper honored in college. It’s just such a huge jump that you think shouldn’t work, but really does.

[00:33:15] Adam: But it is entirely politically.

[00:33:17] Logan: Yeah.

[00:33:17] Adam: Charged. And I think that is what makes dawn of the plan of the apes fascinating because that first movie, rise of the plan of the apes, is very grounded in let’s do a modern take on how the plan of the apes comes about. Whereas dawn of the Planet of the Apes has way more to say.

[00:33:39] Andy: Yeah, it actually has something to say.

[00:33:42] Adam: It has something to say.

[00:33:43] Andy: Rise is like a functional prequel. And that’s kind of it because.

[00:33:47] Logan: Yeah, yeah. Because it’s really just trying to get people on board with the idea of more. And I. Even then, I think people who liked that first film, they were, I think, pretty surprised when Don even happened. Even a rise did.

[00:34:00] Andy: Yeah.

Made to start.

[00:34:03] Logan: Yeah.

[00:34:03] Andy: Anything. It was just like, no, you know, planet.

[00:34:08] Logan: I remember when dawn came out with a trailer and I was like, fuck, this looks so good. I’m so dumb for this. And I had more. Multiple people just go like, well, they’re making more. I was like, yeah, it’s like, do you see the first one? Or like, do you see rise? And it’s like, yeah, it’s pretty good. I didn’t know they were making more like, it just like, it seemed like most people who saw it, like, in terms of, like, just in the social sense, like, the people that really enjoyed that film and saw it initially, it kind of went in one ear and went out the other. And then when Don K. Like, it’s clear. And Don, they were kind of aware of that because a lot of don’t, especially in the beginning, is just trying to recontextualize the important part.

[00:34:45] Adam: Once why they do a time.

[00:34:46] Logan: Yes.

[00:34:47] Adam: It does not take place immediately after. It’s a.

[00:34:50] Logan: Thank God. I believe it’s a great choice.

[00:34:52] Adam: It’s like a ten year time, ten.

[00:34:54] Logan: Winters is what they say.

[00:34:56] Andy: And the only carried over characters are apes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s. It’s kind of mind blowing how much, even just at the outset, before you even really get into the film, how much dawn feels like a fully conceived, like, contribution to that franchise. I mean, fully conceived film story on its own, aesthetically, tonally, than rise does, which I liked rise, but rise feels like a studio saying, hey, what if we, like, made a planet of the Apes movie to get people get back into that property?

[00:35:39] Logan: Don’t do makeup, though. Don’t do the Burton thing. We want to do vastly different.

[00:35:43] Andy: Dawn feels, like, liberated. That planet of the Apes is back in the cultural lexicon. Lexicon.

[00:35:53] Logan: Give me 1 second.

You guys keep talking.

[00:35:57] Andy: Should I keep recording or pause it?

[00:35:59] Adam: Okay, it’s back in the lexicon.

[00:36:02] Andy: Yeah. I don’t know. We can. We don’t have to. Like, we can pause the. The actual podcast conversation till he comes back.

[00:36:10] Adam: You haven’t had too much to cut talk about, man.

[00:36:12] Andy: He has nothing to say.

[00:36:15] Adam: He has not. Well, he has too much.

[00:36:16] Andy: Too much.

[00:36:19] Adam: Logan, if you’re hearing this during editing.

[00:36:23] Andy: I’m gonna take the podcast for myself Adams.

[00:36:28] Adam: That is a good point. Is that in dawn, it goes past the lexicon.

[00:36:36] Andy: Yeah.

[00:36:36] Adam: It goes past like, oh, I know, a planet. It goes to a level of, oh, well, shit, people actually care about this. It isn’t some.

[00:36:48] Andy: Or at least people are on board with.

[00:36:51] Adam: Yeah.

[00:36:52] Andy: Being back in that world, in watching movies about apes, you know, talking apes and intelligent world back, and they barely talk and rise. Right. I mean, Caesar, there’s vocalizations that.

[00:37:06] Adam: Caesar pulls things. Maybe three. Maybe three.

[00:37:11] Andy: But yeah, dawn just feels entirely.

Yeah, it. I mean, liberated, I guess, is the best way I can put it, that it’s not because beholden to this. Well, we have to make sure that, like, you know, people are on board with this whole planet of the apes thing. And also we gotta, you know, cater to the die hards to make sure they know it’s a. It’s a real planet of the. And there’s plenty of nuggets in there, I’m sure. More than I’m aware of. Yeah.

[00:37:37] Adam: In that first movie, it’s force.

[00:37:38] Andy: Yeah. Right.

[00:37:39] Adam: Whereas I feel in the following movies, including the most recent one, Kingdom, it is so much more earned. Whereas in rise, they’re really forcing it to be like, hey, we. We know how iconic the original is. And don, you’re right. It’s just liberated.

[00:37:56] Andy: Stretching its legs in pretty much every way. Narratively, technologically. I mean, it’s taking. It takes a massive leap thanks to, you know, all of the budget and the advancement of the technology at that time. It is. It’s Weta, right? Yeah, yeah, weta. And of course, Andy Serkis kind of continuing to foster this community of motion capture and speak on. It’s. On that type of performance’s behalf. And, yeah, it’s just all across the board. This movie just feels like, okay, now we can fucking go for it and, like, make something out of it.

[00:38:32] Logan: That’s the biggest. Also for context, it’s the first time this has ever happened in the odd trilogies episodes. My fucking neighbor avanized neighbor was knocking on the door while he was talking. That’s why.

[00:38:42] Adam: Wait, old school has never knocked on the door?

[00:38:45] Logan: No, no.

[00:38:46] Andy: He’s made noises. He’s been. He’s been featured on.

[00:38:50] Adam: So just imagine a hedgehog with a balding mullet.

[00:38:55] Andy: Yeah, I was gonna say we kind of, like, I figured, you know, we could just cut around it. But also, we can include old school in the episode.

[00:39:01] Logan: No, I mean, I’ve had to do. Do you know, disclaimers about the fact that he’s moving furniture while we’re doing.

[00:39:08] Adam: He should probably be the.

[00:39:12] Andy: Put him on the thumbnail of every episode.

[00:39:14] Adam: He’s always above us as above, so below every time.

[00:39:19] Logan: Because the thing, too, is. I don’t even know if it showed up on the audio itself, but, like, he always knocks like he’s about to get eaten by a zombie.

[00:39:26] Andy: And it’s never like you just found out you, like, he just wanted his wife.

[00:39:30] Logan: He just wanted to know if we had sweet things.

[00:39:31] Adam: Dude, it always sounds like a. Like a chimp is about to rip his fucking.

[00:39:40] Andy: If you don’t answer after the first, like, knock or two, they’re screaming and.

[00:39:43] Logan: It’S like, yeah, God. I mean, as one, I’ll give it to him. He makes it interesting.

[00:39:51] Adam: We were talking again about how dawn of the Planet of the apes absolutely breaks free from its shackles of.

I don’t know. I don’t know. Reverence to the original in a way that is toxic because, like, that first movie really has so many forced references and dawn of the Planet of the Apes has practically none. But I would argue thematically.

[00:40:20] Andy: Yeah. Lines up so more the spirit of the thing.

[00:40:24] Logan: Yeah, no, absolutely.

[00:40:25] Adam: And one of the biggest aspects of that, like, reverence to the original comes from Guillotino. Yeah, guillotino.

[00:40:37] Andy: Am I butchering Giacchino? But I’m not sure.

[00:40:40] Adam: Giacchino.

[00:40:41] Logan: We’re talking about the composer.

[00:40:42] Andy: Yeah. Michael.

[00:40:43] Adam: Yeah.

[00:40:44] Logan: Who’s known for the. This film as well as war, as well as the Incredibles and also the Batman.

[00:40:50] Andy: Yeah.

[00:40:50] Logan: Which is a Matt Reeves joint which did Don and war. Absolutely.

[00:40:55] Adam: It’s phenomenal. I mean, he does good work. And in this, the score to rise is good, but it is very. Two thousands being like, let’s put a bit of apes in there. Whereas Guillotino is like, I love Goldsmith. I love the original composer of a lot of the ape sequels and the original apes from, you know, the sixties and seventies.

And he just blends it all together in such a phenomenal new way while all making original tracks, too. He is not pulling from that original score. He is making a new score that sounds like a plan of the years sequel from the seventies.

[00:41:46] Logan: And it’s so obvious that even, like, I remember seeing dawn in theaters and not even seeing the original by that point since before we did our watch through. And, like, it’s so obvious that there is an intention there that it’s like, it has to be a reference to the original as, like, an homage or like, the classic films because. Yeah, because rise doesn’t really have that. Yeah. I still think of, like, Koba initially when he goes to the armory for the first time like that just. It just sounds like after watching the original films being like, fuck, this is so obviously goldsmith homage in the best way. It will still be its own thing and being good in its own right. And yet Don is fucking wild, especially, like, everyone a rewatch. Because it’s just like.

Because I. In honor of this episode and it’s not a tax write off, I promise. But, like, I bought bullshit. I bought the four k’s for these films.

[00:42:38] Adam: Bullshit.

[00:42:38] Logan: And I have to fucking say, the rise 4k really shows how rough the animation has aged in the last 13 years. Yeah, still good. Still really good. But it’s like, in a passing way where if you’re looking from the side, you don’t notice the amount of motion blur they use, especially the beginning of the film. But they use a lot during baby kids Caesar, until they get to adult and then you get to dawn. And when we watch dawn and war in 4k. Holy fucking shit. It is beautiful. Gorgeous. I mean, I. Again, we’ll talk about more with war two, but in war, there’s just a shot of Maurice’s face in frame, and it’s insane. It throws me off Maurice.

[00:43:17] Adam: I saw it in a more normal film and it format might know the shot.

[00:43:22] Logan: I mean, yeah, it’s like, it’s just. He’s just in frame and you’re like, how the fuck.

[00:43:26] Andy: For some reason, we gotta stop and talk about Maurice for a second, just as a technical feat, because I say, like, just. It’s not. It’s not one shot. I know what shot you’re talking about, and it’s amazing, but it’s like the entire. Every time he’s on screen, it’s like, that could just be a real. Or you could tell me that’s a real orangutan that they trained to do these things. It looks that real.

[00:43:48] Adam: What? And I think that is a crucial point, again, to those not versed in the lore as we are.

The main characters that are apes in the movies are, of course, at the head.

[00:44:05] Logan: Caesar.

[00:44:06] Adam: This. This Moses esque figure for apes. He leads his culture, absolutely bondage out of, like, you know, darkness, and leads them towards a new beginning. There’s Maurice, his right hand man, a former circus orangutan who already knows sign language and rise the planet.

[00:44:30] Logan: Yes.

[00:44:31] Adam: And then is made way more smart by, you know, the events of that movie. And then you’ve got these two other characters who are key, which are Rocket.

[00:44:42] Logan: Rocket was my boy. My boy.

[00:44:45] Adam: He was top dog at the ape sanctuary that Caesar lived at and eventually, like.

[00:44:51] Logan: But he got. He got some gas can therapy from Caesar and then became a good boy after the chips Ahoy.

[00:44:56] Adam: Well, he also got the shit beat out of him threatened by Caesar and his guerrilla friend Buck book. But then the probably most, second most second most iconic character in this entire franchise who was introduced in Rise of the planet the apes, but is the main antagonist of dawn of the planet the Apes. Koba, a bonobo.

[00:45:27] Logan: Played by Toby Kevill.

[00:45:28] Andy: Toby Koba.

[00:45:29] Logan: And it sounds bad. And you think it sound bad saying it’s Toby Kevl’s best role in his career.

[00:45:37] Andy: Something.

[00:45:37] Logan: To be honest to God, it’s really something. Yeah. Cuz again, Kobe is phenomenal. There are people that, like, again, after kingdom, like because I mean, we have all sinking him at this point is this recording. But like, I remember like seeing right after the film people on twitter and even on fucking YouTube anywhere they could talk about it being like, man, I miss a cobra. Like, they just, like, Cobra put such a big shadow on any apes villains from this point forward, like 2014 on that. It’s just like insane to think that, like, that’s just a man in great pajamas fucking killing it. Well, and I mean, really just giving it his all.

[00:46:15] Adam: This is something I felt for ten years now because, I mean, again, dawn of the Planet of the Apes comes out in 2014.

I have just entered college and I watched this movie and. And it is a remarkable experience. I have rekindled kind of a fandom with Plan of the apes. Rewatched the original movie. I’ve watched the first sequel, which is the worst plan of the apes movie.

But that being said, I’ve, like, rekindled this. And I remember so many times during dawn of the plan of the apes seeing where it’s grown from. Rise of the plan of the apes. It is straight biblical. It is so betrayal and, well, it’s.

[00:47:11] Andy: Very old testament, like, early days of the human race in the biblical sense. And it’s those broad. It’s because it’s taking such broad beats and I don’t mean that negatively. It’s a very straightforward story, very conventional. Most of the kind of turns of the story you’re gonna be familiar with if you’ve read stories before. Yeah, but, yeah, biblical is the right way to put it, because it is very, like, it’s foundational to an entire being, you know, species of beings. And it’s. It’s. Yeah. It echoes early humanity as we tell it.

[00:47:54] Adam: Yeah. And I think there’s so many parallels that are made stupidly to Caesar and Jesus.

[00:48:03] Andy: Right, right.

[00:48:05] Adam: Caesar is not a Jesus. He’s very much. He’s a Moses. He’s a Moses. And it’s. You’re right, Andy. It is this very Old Testament vibe all the time. I remember even in the first time I watched the movie in theaters. And, you know, Koba is. You could argue he’s a Judas or something like that. He’s more of a cane. He is like this initial sin where society was working for these apes, and instead of, like, obeying the law of God or whatever, of Yahweh, he sees his own pain and he acts through it and makes this first sin. He, Koba, is phenomenal. It’s a character. Because he might be the most important character in this new canon.

[00:49:02] Andy: Yeah. Just in terms of the history that they’ve built.

[00:49:05] Logan: Absolutely.

[00:49:05] Adam: Because he is the one that fucks it all up. He is the. The one that, through his fear and his anguish of being hurt by humanity, dooms apes and humans forever fight each other, which is so much better than anything, those original secrets.

[00:49:24] Logan: And what makes it even more fascinating is the fact that his turn for the worst doesn’t happen until, like, halfway.

[00:49:31] Andy: His planet, seeds planted throughout. Yeah. He doesn’t make that choice, that fateful choice until.

[00:49:39] Logan: Yeah, because it’s all trauma.

[00:49:41] Andy: Right. Like, again, Caesar has that fucking incredible line where he’s talking to his son about. I think he’s talking to his son about Koba. And he basically says, like, the only thing Koba learned from humans was hate.

[00:49:54] Logan: Yeah.

[00:49:54] Andy: And like, that. Did you just sums up Kobold in.

[00:49:58] Logan: One sentence to really just captured, which he’s right too. Yeah.

[00:50:04] Adam: Koba is a phenomenal character because it makes absolute sense why he’s saying exactly.

[00:50:09] Andy: It’s simultaneously never Caesar empathizing with Koba and also, you know, condemning his line.

[00:50:15] Adam: Of thinking, but also showing some of Caesar’s weakness as well, is like, Caesar having to square up with Koba, even when Koba is being more lax.

It shows kind of Caesar’s empathy towards humans, which is, to a degree, an empty.

To a detriment. He doesn’t owe humans as much as he gives them in dawn of the planet. He does not owe them.

[00:50:45] Logan: He doesn’t owe them anything, really.

[00:50:47] Adam: He doesn’t owe them anything. And then Koba is pushed even further because Caesar cannot meet him in the middle about his trauma. And he also beats the shit out.

[00:51:01] Logan: Of him.

[00:51:03] Adam: Which Koba has earned it.

[00:51:05] Logan: By that point, I would argue Caesar loves human more than ape. And then you just, you get that classic Serkis scowl where it’s like, where.

[00:51:15] Andy: The CGI chimp face melts away and it’s just Andy Serkis standing there glaring at you.

[00:51:20] Adam: Huffington.

[00:51:21] Logan: Koba goes from, I only have human scars to now I have a.

[00:51:24] Andy: Now I have Caesar scars.

[00:51:27] Logan: Because, I mean, that’s the craziest thing about dawn, is that it’s one of the reasons why it always sounds fucking silly to say out loud. Because for most people, they haven’t given the trilogy a full try. Because Don, to me is you want an empire strikes back in the modern era. You fucking get it. With dawn where it’s like, rise, basically, it plants the seeds of where the future will go. It plants the seeds of the simian flu. It plants the seeds of where humans could do it. Even plants the seeds of a conflict between Koba and Caesar because in rise, Koba attacks Franco at the very end. And then Caesar just knocks his shit. And so it almost implies that Koba could be an antagonist in the next film. And then you get to dawn and it’s so much more interesting.

[00:52:09] Adam: Yeah.

[00:52:10] Logan: It’s so much more in depth, empathetic, just well performed. My God, again, Terry notary technology.

[00:52:18] Adam: The technology.

[00:52:19] Logan: Yes.

[00:52:20] Adam: Hot up so quickly.

[00:52:23] Logan: Yeah.

[00:52:24] Adam: With being able. I mean, again, dawn still looks pretty much. Pretty much fucking perfect.

[00:52:31] Logan: Yeah, it does. Yeah.

[00:52:33] Andy: I mean, and even you can tell.

[00:52:35] Adam: At CGI, but you are not detached by.

[00:52:39] Andy: Yeah, and like.

[00:52:41] Logan: Yeah.

[00:52:41] Andy: Beyond maybe a scant couple seconds here or there in the film, I could not perceive significant improvement in either war or even kingdom. Like, that’s how good it looks.

[00:52:55] Adam: No, I could, but I’m gonna shut.

[00:53:00] Andy: Those two movies.

[00:53:01] Logan: Also minimal but important because, like.

[00:53:04] Adam: Because again, I feel in war.

I’ll save it for when we talk about war.

[00:53:09] Logan: But I disagree because I think with war, it’s just like they’re there. I think the issues in war are more with the actual set design and lighting.

[00:53:19] Andy: Yeah. Again, I’m not knocking Warren King or saying that they’re great. I’m saying dawn is so good, it basically has aged a day.

[00:53:29] Logan: I would agree.

[00:53:30] Andy: Like, Dawn’s phenomenal VFX have basically, you know, if you want to. If, you know, there’s a lot of kind of argument going around film discourse and stuff all over the Internet of like, you know, how VFX have stagnated or even maybe regressed over the last, like, decade or so. And because they’re rushed. Yeah. Because. Because studios began to really kind of excessively abuse the talents of VFX artists and, like, look no further than, I think, dawn of the Planet of the Apes, ten years old. Looks like it came out this year. You know, would be.

Would be outstanding amongst 2024 releases. If it came out in 2020, would.

[00:54:14] Adam: Be better than.

[00:54:17] Andy: Today.

[00:54:17] Adam: Yeah.

[00:54:19] Logan: I think a lot of that that has to do with Serkis having more of a pull with the sequels as well as Reeves, I think, just not director.

[00:54:27] Adam: But Serkis was not a VFX guy.

[00:54:30] Logan: No.

[00:54:30] Adam: But he, he was an, he was a, he was a, you know, working actor who got Gollum and then was forever tied up with this motion capture thing. Well, yeah, when they were doing Lord of the Rings, they weren’t. It was not motion capture. It was him on set in a white morphsuit, basically flopping around in the.

[00:54:54] Andy: Hills, basically doing reference.

[00:54:56] Adam: Yeah, yeah. And then he would have to redo all of that shit on a soundstage.

[00:55:02] Logan: Yeah.

[00:55:02] Adam: And planet the apes forever changed that because now you can shoot on an actual set.

[00:55:11] Logan: I mean, you can be.

[00:55:12] Adam: Build the ape city.

[00:55:14] Andy: The ape like towns have a bunch of mocap actors in it.

[00:55:19] Adam: Yeah, yeah. And you can have these human characters in it.

[00:55:22] Andy: Right.

[00:55:23] Adam: Everything Clark is, is surrounded by a multitude of actors, all in gray suits, mind you.

[00:55:31] Logan: Yeah.

[00:55:31] Adam: But the atmosphere is so much more there. It’s not, it’s not attack of the clones, a bunch of people on like a blue screen.

[00:55:39] Logan: No, but this is a. I do think his experience, though, on Lord of the Rings in King Kong leads to when apes gives him the ability to do all that without having to do the usual song and dance. Like, they can go to do an ape school. They can do it on set. They are able to work with a director who can visually see in their brain. This is where Caesar’s gonna show up here. This is where Reese is gonna be rocket. Because again, Reeves, I think, is a director. Massive upgrade. Very clearly, Wyatt does a good job with rise, but when Reeves does Dawn and war, it’s like, well, thank God it went up a, it went up a notch. And I think with Serkis, I think once Serkis does King Kong, at that point he goes, I will forever now be the king of visual effects, whether I have a degree in it, which I don’t or not. It’s just because I did such a good job, my breakout role, and I do such a good job as as a motion capture guy, I’m going to commit. And he, I mean, literally, he’s, he is stuck to that in some way, shape or form. I mean, the amount of times he has just gone on projects that are just like, we need you for motion capture. And he’s like, all right, oh, I’ll do it and I’ll sell it.

[00:56:48] Adam: Since 2012 or so, I mean, there were, I’ve been told again and again he’s doing an animal farm.

[00:56:56] Logan: Oh, yes, he’s wanted to do that.

[00:56:58] Adam: And that has just gone on and off for, you know, like over a decade.

[00:57:03] Logan: I think that is where cuz, like, what he wants because he’s just tied to it. Yeah, yeah. And it’s also the fact that like, he wanted to do two things after apes in some way, shape or form. That is a Jungle book film.

[00:57:15] Adam: It’s not a good one.

[00:57:16] Logan: But a lot of that has to do with the fact that it’s like, yeah, he just picks the two projects where it’s like, well, one is a Disney classic that is literally going to destroy yours whether it’s dog shit or not. And it’s not. So now it’s going to be even harder to make one. And the other one is Animal Farm, which most kids or our generation thinks of as a book you read in school that is phenomenal and has incredible political commentary and is a phenomenal book. But with the amount of money you’re gonna have to put into it, like, it’s gonna be hard to sell it to a studio. And so it’s just.

[00:57:46] Andy: But I think, I think by Dawn, by 2014, fair to say: Serkis’s experience working in, if you want to call it performance capture or performing a digital character.

[00:58:03] Adam: Yeah.

[00:58:03] Andy: Had given him the tools and the say, the experience to influence. I don’t, I don’t. I mean, I’m not saying dawn was his priority project or his baby or whatever, or that it wasn’t just as much the improvements of digital effects as it was his efforts in championing and pushing it forward. But you know, having played King Kong and Gollum, he had the physical catalog within him and the understanding of how the process worked to then kind of help usher in these improvements by working with other cast members and extras on the set. You know, there’s so many more, so.

[00:58:47] Adam: Much more motion all pays off and done it.

[00:58:50] Andy: Done what?

[00:58:52] Adam: Yeah. And dawn, everything that he is, you know, representing and pulling together in his Persona or whatever, it completely pays off in dawn because you, like you said, andy, it’s, it looks good now. And this is a decade ago of the most, like, technologically advanced ages ever as far as cinema.

[00:59:20] Andy: Yes.

[00:59:21] Adam: And it still looks good. And what blows my mind the most is that, I mean, yeah, there’s all these movies like the abyss from back in the day, James Cameron, where people just talk about it for its effects. I never hear anybody talk about the abyss as a movie. I hear people talk about dawn of the Planet of the Apes as a technical feat. And just as a really good movie, it is so solid and it is hard not to get caught up in the effects of how good it looks. But it is still a really good biblical, post apocalyptic movie. I mean, it’s so solid. It’s better than any of the plan of the apes from the original.

[01:00:13] Logan: It has the most confidence of nearly every. I think it probably has more confidence than even the original plan of the apes because it’s. Because it has that film to back it off.

[01:00:22] Adam: It knows its legacy.

[01:00:25] Logan: It’s like the film that started this all is considered still one of the best Sci-Fi films of all time. So we’re gonna go for it. We’re gonna make something that is like.

[01:00:32] Adam: We’Re gonna make this plan.

[01:00:34] Logan: Because, again, with dawn. What’s fucking crazy about dawn, too, is the premise is so simplistic. It is a misunderstanding between surviving humans and apes that ultimately leads to a bloody interaction that leads to war and then the inner workings on both sides as the fear and misunderstanding bruise on both sides before they really even talk to one another. Like, it is just the misunderstandings and how much it leads to bad things happening. And just. It’s so fascinating, the fact that it’s like, yeah, this is dawn. This movie’s like a hundred plus million dollars. We have so many fucking good looking apes. And guess what? It’s Sci-Fi but it ain’t. It ain’t complicated. Like, that’s what makes it phenomenal, is you can take the simple premise and.

[01:01:18] Andy: Build off of it beyond the fact that these are genetically enhanced apes, barely Sci-Fi like, it’s primitive, like mythology.

[01:01:31] Logan: Seriously.

[01:01:31] Adam: Which, again, I even when I watched it for that first time in theaters, I still call it biblical.

[01:01:41] Logan: I think it’s the best way to describe it, honestly.

[01:01:43] Andy: Just the style of storytelling and the beats it’s going through and the tone with which it’s.

[01:01:49] Adam: Yeah. And when you move into war, the plan of the apes, and then looking back even to rise, I think the biblical inspiration becomes so much more clear because it further solidifies Caesar as a. Again, not a Jesus figure that’s a lazy way to talk about. I mean, he’s. He’s Moses, he’s an Abraham. He is.

Hell, you could even call him a Muhammad. I mean, he’s one of these, like, radical figures who completely recontextualizes a culture and is like, oh.

Even if he sees himself as this humble figure, as just a servant of decency, Don really establishes war, really establishes. This guy is bigger than anything he may view himself as. And he’s a goddamn monkey.

[01:02:51] Logan: Yeah.

[01:02:52] Adam: And that’s insane that I’m talking this deeply about a character.

And he’s a. He’s an ape.

[01:03:00] Logan: He’s a chimpanzee again. So, like, the thing about Don, too, at least for me, was like, when I saw Don, I initially thought we saw together, but we didn’t. I think we saw war in theaters together. Did we?

[01:03:10] Adam: Yeah.

[01:03:11] Logan: Yeah. But Don, I actually saw with my little brother, who at the time cried.

No, he was a little baby around the time he was probably ten or eleven. And we basically, he was like, I want. He’s like, I want to see Don. He had never seen rise, so I had to really just like. It’s like, be like, okay, monkey. He’s like. Or if he had, he had completely forgotten, which I think most people I talk to when they talk about Don, they say, I don’t remember what happens in rise. And it’s like, well, Simeon flew. James Frank.

[01:03:39] Andy: No.

[01:03:40] Logan: Alzheimer’s? No. So we go in and we see Don, and, like, like, my brother, who, again, is like, has no real tie to anything other than damn dirty apes. Maybe the little he’s hurt over the years and for months after this film, kept doing the Koba. Get on his knee, put his arm.

[01:03:58] Adam: Out, and I touch his forearm, offering the. The act. They’re describing an ape asking for permission.

[01:04:07] Logan: Yes.

[01:04:07] Adam: Or forgiveness when they stress humility out.

[01:04:11] Logan: Yeah.

[01:04:12] Adam: And then just the other ape runs.

[01:04:14] Logan: He would just try to piss me off just so he could get on the ground and do the. And I would just do it every time. Because it’s just. It just was interesting to see somebody, because, again, the thing about these films, I would argue this is the worst part about the entire trilogy.

[01:04:28] Andy: Don’t worry.

[01:04:30] Logan: No, no, I’m just gonna say you hate Donald. The fucking. The naming conventions, really? Fuck this trilogy. Because there are still people who love dawn and still think it’s rise where people go, no, I really love rise. The copa is really good.

[01:04:45] Andy: It’s like, well, rise and dawn.

[01:04:47] Adam: Cobra is in riddles, but they’re talking.

[01:04:50] Logan: But they’re talking about Kevin. They’re clearly talking about, like, which Keble is not in.

[01:04:55] Adam: Rise the planet.

[01:04:56] Andy: Rise and dawn are effectively redundant titles.

[01:04:59] Logan: Yes.

[01:05:00] Andy: I mean, literally think about, like, the sunrise is dawn, like that dawn of.

[01:05:06] Adam: The rise, the same thing.

[01:05:07] Andy: Like, what?

[01:05:08] Adam: Eclipse, the plan of the apes. People made jokes about my dad.

[01:05:11] Logan: That’s all my dad fucking did. And I was like, being like, don looks rad, dad. And he’s like, that’s that fucking monkey movie with the stupid ass name, dude.

[01:05:19] Adam: I’ll fight Ryan.

[01:05:20] Andy: And I’m like, he’ll win, I guess, just because people don’t really know about the sequels. But it has always been interesting to me how popular, how kind of common that, that sort of joke of like, oh, yeah. Why the title so stupid and long?

[01:05:36] Logan: I think it’s also, I mean, my.

[01:05:37] Adam: Parents are Gen X because there are so many goddamn.

[01:05:40] Andy: They’re stuck in it at this point.

[01:05:42] Adam: We can’t say conquest. We can’t say battle.

[01:05:46] Andy: We can’t do Planet of the Apes insert subtitle.

[01:05:50] Logan: That would be a very, that would be a very fun party game. Getting a bunch of people plastered and asking which planet the ape sequels start and which one’s the last one. And just putting the whole, this little, like, board on or like just a.

[01:06:03] Andy: Multiple choice which of these is not a Planet of the Apes movie title.

[01:06:08] Logan: But use like, it’s like even the comics is. There was comics in the seventies and they were called, like, tarzan at the Planet of the Apes.

[01:06:15] Adam: They’d have anybody.

[01:06:16] Andy: Charles Barney goes to the Planet of the Apes.

[01:06:19] Logan: I mean, it’s just like. Because even then, like, you would think with war, okay, war, it’s better because now you can’t really mix it up. I would even say war shoots itself in the foot of it.

[01:06:28] Andy: Yeah.

[01:06:28] Logan: Because the marketing and the title make it sound like a much different.

[01:06:32] Andy: I would say Rise and Dawn are redundant and somewhat nondescript. I think war is actively misleading.

[01:06:41] Logan: Yes, yes. The marketing was miss.

[01:06:44] Andy: Yeah, I mean, certainly finale.

[01:06:46] Logan: As if that was what the finale was good. Like the whole film was gonna be. Was like the humans coming in hell.

[01:06:52] Adam: You could probably call Dawn War.

[01:06:57] Andy: Sure. Cuz yeah, yeah.

[01:07:00] Adam: Has got blood, bloody viscera and I mean, koba dual wielding machine guns, riding.

[01:07:06] Logan: Incredible.

[01:07:07] Andy: It’s also like all that, that fight is kind of, you know, the, the duo of the fates in which the fate of the intelligent ape species hangs. Like, it all hinges on that and the.

But I mean, so, yeah, that would make sense.

[01:07:29] Adam: Are we moving on to war?

[01:07:31] Logan: Well, I will I will transition.

[01:07:33] Adam: I will have anything else say about Dom, make the full shift over to the Harrelson zone.

[01:07:39] Logan: Even though I would say the weakest part about Don as a film could technically be the humans. I think Jason Clark is a better human.

[01:07:45] Andy: He’s good.

[01:07:46] Logan: I like Carrie Ross character, and I think Gary Oldman as a quote, unquote, human antagonist, I think works. He’s so solely for the.

[01:07:54] Andy: There’s not a point.

[01:07:55] Logan: The iPad scene is enough for me and even has more after that, I think is like, this is a good.

[01:08:00] Adam: Well, because Gary Oldman’s character.

I mean, in typical Gary fashion, he is way too good.

[01:08:10] Logan: Yeah.

[01:08:10] Adam: For whatever. He’s always bringing it. And his character is very simple. He’s just normal guy. But the way that he acts this, like, dang.

Yeah, no, I get you, man.

[01:08:23] Logan: Yeah. I would also.

[01:08:24] Adam: You don’t really judge his character ever, which is unique for a plan of the Abe’s film, when usually the antagonists are pretty obvious.

[01:08:32] Andy: Yeah. I remember thinking, because before I rewatched for this episode, I. It had been years since I. Maybe since it came out, since I’d seen Dawn.

[01:08:41] Adam: I hadn’t seen it since the.

[01:08:42] Andy: And I remembered. I thought I remembered feeling like he was a little bit more maniacal or kind of like you could see almost sort of koba.

[01:08:53] Adam: Oh, no, not Don. I’m sorry. I said I hadn’t seen dawn since theaters. I hadn’t seen.

[01:09:01] Andy: Yeah, I don’t think I’d seen dawn theater. And I remembered Gary Oldman being a little bit more sinister. A little bit more like, okay, yes, he’s empty. He has an empathetic, you know, reason for what he does. But I felt like he was, you know, this kind of sadistic, like, lost in his rage or whatever. And he’s really not like he’s a very normal person who. Very evil. Typically, to the circumstances he’s presented with.

[01:09:28] Logan: Again, this is why Don is so fucking good. You understand where everyone is coming from. Yeah. Like, even Kobo, when he makes his bad turn, where it’s like, all right, you’re. You’re a bad. You need to get your ass beat again. You still are like, I fucking get it.

[01:09:39] Andy: Yeah.

[01:09:40] Logan: Why the fuck would you like if.

[01:09:41] Adam: Caesar, portrayed by this race, again, creature.

[01:09:46] Logan: For decades, the scene where he just keeps pointing at scars going, human work. Human work.

[01:09:51] Andy: Like, human work.

[01:09:52] Adam: It’s like, holy human work.

[01:09:54] Logan: This is. Again, it’s just like. It also shows, again, just the. The jump where it’s like, you know, there’s a. There’s no real. No scene in dawn. But what I would say is the equivalent. Equivalent is the tracking shot or the shot attached to the Humvee. When the fucking koba.

When it’s attached to the top and you watch Koba go in, beat some ass, come out and you just see him wreck. It’s like, this is so much more technically interesting in the last film. And it’s so much better in a lot of ways that it’s just. I mean, that shot is so fucking good.

[01:10:30] Andy: A word I kept.

[01:10:31] Logan: And a film of great shots.

[01:10:32] Andy: Yeah. A word I just kept coming back to with yeah is apes with dawn. As I think about it and even as I think about the movies that follow it is just how thoughtful it is in, like, every aspect. Its presentation, the visuals, the cinematography. I mean, it’s like.

[01:10:55] Adam: It lets it.

[01:10:56] Andy: Yeah, well, and the fact that it. Everything in the movie is just soaking wet with rain. Like, really just plants you right in this environment with them.

[01:11:05] Adam: It upstate New York.

[01:11:06] Andy: It eliminates any barrier of, like, the suspension of disbelief or, like, the VFX or anything. Everything is just wet and gross and damp. And it’s.

It all feels very, like, immediate and tangible. And the music plays into that and the cinematography plays into that and the script plays into that, and it’s all just performances.

Yeah. It’s rare to see, like, a.

To think that this is a prequel film to a legacy franchise that is just like it. Only it feels like its only concern is telling a fully, like, displaying a fully unified vision.

[01:11:47] Logan: It says a lot. This is, I think, is always a great testament to a great film in general. It doesn’t have to be just with an apes film, but it’s like when you watch it with somebody who has never seen it or it’s been a while since I’ve seen it. Like, for example, when we watched it with your wife and she was like, she had definitely seen dawn before, the way she was talking about it. But when we watched it this time, it’s like she had never seen it before. It is a testament to how good Don is, where it’s like, it is almost like watching it for the first time again, just watching it with people who don’t remember or have seen it. Because, like, even though I know, you know, the shot when Caesar and Rocket son runs into the human, like, I remember that shot in my brain, it still made me gasp a little rewatch. Oh, fuck. This is when this happens.

[01:12:28] Adam: Oh, shit.

[01:12:29] Logan: This is when this happens.

[01:12:30] Adam: Like, you don’t get.

[01:12:31] Logan: You don’t even hitting the whole time.

[01:12:33] Adam: In the context of the movie. By that point, you don’t even know if humans are still around.

[01:12:37] Logan: No.

[01:12:38] Andy: Right.

[01:12:38] Adam: You were. You are fully told by the ape characters in the prologue that, I mean, humans, humanity’s gone. And it shows again, like, three winters since we’ve seen these motherfuckers. They are gone.

[01:12:52] Andy: 510 years after.

[01:12:54] Adam: Ten years.

[01:12:56] Logan: Ten winters.

[01:12:58] Adam: The last two. We haven’t seen them.

[01:13:00] Logan: No. Yeah. More ape school.

[01:13:03] Andy: Oh, yeah. Elementary school.

Yeah. Just seeing all the little babies learning.

[01:13:10] Logan: We all the little babies, we all make guesses. And I thought baby apes would definitely make her cry. I thought James Franco, if you give.

[01:13:18] Andy: Me a second, I can pull up every scene. She cried.

[01:13:21] Logan: Yes. Because we texted it to Adam afterwards.

But I mean, no, it’s one of those things where it’s just like. It is a film that is always going to have to have any time I recommend it. It’s going to have people be like, you’re talking about the ape film, right? And I was like, yes, I’m fucking talking about the second planet apes in the re, like the Serkis trilogy. That film is a testament to how great blockbusters, visual effects can be. Because, again, it’s like, you know, I think about, like, years ago, like, I one time saw a film with my dad in theaters that now, looking back, is fucking hilarious that he said this at. But I remember him watching it being like, the random film being like, wow, this looks so good. I’m like, think about that. The fact that this is gonna look like ass in a few years and Don doesn’t have that issue. Don is only aged like a fucking fine wine in the comments.

[01:14:14] Andy: Actually, today, because I was reading a friend of mine’s letterbox review of the amazing Spider man two, weirdly enough, which is another movie from 2014 whose VFX have aged remarkably well. And it just.

[01:14:33] Logan: The suit’s great.

[01:14:34] Andy: The suit’s great. The action’s fucking great. Like, every moment of CGI looks stunning in that film. It’s. I’m wondering if, like, 2014 2015 was kind of like the crossing point of, like, you know, the peaking of VFX technology right before all the VFX artists started getting exploited to hell by the studios.

[01:15:04] Logan: I will say it’s like, not a.

[01:15:06] Adam: Not a terrible place to put that water.

[01:15:09] Andy: Yeah.

[01:15:10] Logan: No, it also is. I think it shows because I think that is, like, with amazing Spider man. That is Sony being like, this is too big to fail.

[01:15:17] Andy: Right?

[01:15:19] Logan: We are gonna make so many sinister six films. We’re gonna be loaded.

[01:15:22] Andy: Yeah. I think that movie ended like, don, we’re don’t million dollars.

[01:15:26] Adam: 20Th Century Fox being like, this back paddle or backpedal property we’ve had for decades. Decades. And I’ve done much.

[01:15:39] Logan: Yeah, it is fascinating to think of that. Yes.

[01:15:42] Adam: So much more that they’ve.

They’re making bank. Right.

[01:15:48] Logan: Just. Just to have, you know, one studio be like, in the MCU mindset of, like, we’re gonna make eight films just off of how, quote unquote good this film will do. This is compared to 20th Century Fox.

[01:16:01] Adam: Twelve just movies just being like, you.

[01:16:04] Logan: Made it work once. Fuck it, do it again. Maybe one more time. Just fucking go for it. And it’s like a solid, like a standard trilogy. In the 2010s, without the idea of being like, this will be six films. Like, no, it’s just make it. Just let it ride a little bit longer. Like, it’s. The restraint on 20th Century Fox is astounding, especially since they also had fucking X Men at that time, which had no restraint.

But, yeah, Donna’s phenomenal. Let’s go.

[01:16:33] Andy: Before we move on to war, I did pull up my list of every time my wife wept at dawn. First time was Maurice’s ape elementary school.

[01:16:44] Adam: Yeah, yeah.

[01:16:45] Andy: When Caesar’s baby was born, when Koba lit Caesar’s palace on fire.

[01:16:53] Adam: It’s not his pal.

[01:16:54] Andy: I know.

[01:16:54] Adam: It is one of the proletariat. He has the big house.

[01:17:02] Andy: When chimps start falling from the building that they’re trying to blow up that.

[01:17:07] Logan: Yeah.

[01:17:08] Andy: Getting shot or whatever, right out of the building. And then the. The ending scene. So I think that’s six separate instances.

[01:17:16] Logan: She probably. Even for Emma, she probably would have cried if Maurice actually died. Maurice gets shot.

[01:17:21] Andy: Yeah, yeah. Maurice, she definitely gets grazed.

[01:17:24] Adam: He makes.

[01:17:25] Logan: She gasped when that happened. And I was like, oh, well, because, like, she didn’t trust either one of us. We’re watching this. Because she was like, you’re not fucking telling me what happened?

Because it was funny. Because she was like, cuz I made a joke about when we were doing the movies because, like, the. The 4K version has, like, three slides, like, one shot of Caesar from rise, one shot from one of. And I said, this is Caesar in his twenties, caesar in his thirties, and Caesar in his forties, just as a joke. And then in dawn, he. When Caesar, quote unquote, dies, she was like, you told me he’s in war. I don’t fucking believe a goddamn thing you’re saying. I’m like, I don’t know, maybe it’s his right. And then it leads into war, where, like, war, there’s such a big betrayal when the big sad thing at the very beginning of the film, it’s like she just never forgave until bad ape showed up.

[01:18:17] Andy: Yeah. Bad ape’s saving grace. In terms of the. The emotional heft.

[01:18:23] Logan: Yeah. I mean, one of the crazy, because, again, it’s Star wars. It’s not the only one to do trilogies like the original saga. In terms of just like, you know, the first one is the proof of concept. You’re not gonna get the biggest budget, but you’re gonna introduce people to this world. Empire is where you go all out and you really just cement yourself as, this is the thing, this is the franchise. And then you would think for a lot of films, the return is where it’s like, ah, we’re gonna pull it back a little bit, but we’re still gonna have some really cool ideas, but we’re gonna also add some cute little bears. You would think in the social, like, in, like, kind of the cultural mindset, if you do a trilogy, you follow that template, even if it’s nothing like that genre wise.

[01:19:03] Andy: Yeah.

[01:19:04] Logan: War, it’s not return of the Jedi. War is. Could be the farthest from that in terms of tone and what it’s trying to go for.

[01:19:11] Adam: That’s what I was about to say. Like, as fascinating as somebody who is a return of the Jedi defender.

[01:19:18] Logan: Good movie. I like return.

[01:19:20] Adam: It’s my favorite. It’s my favorite Star wars movie. I don’t think it’s the best Star wars movie. I think it’s my favorite Star wars movie. But you’re right. I mean, thank God you said it. War is such a unique, you know, finale. Yeah, I think it’s a very effective finale. It works phenomenally in what has been a stage established in the previous two. In re watching them recently, one thing that shocked me, I think, was how much, thematically, there is between war and rise, which I would have. I didn’t think about that when I first watched War. I was like, dang, this is such a continuation of dawn. But you do see some connection with rise and kind of reflecting what, you know, legacy and leadership can be wars. Good.

I know, Andy.

[01:20:27] Andy: I think war is okay. I think it’s fine.

[01:20:30] Logan: I think I might like war the most out of the.

[01:20:33] Andy: Oh, really?

[01:20:34] Adam: Boo boo boo.

[01:20:36] Andy: Logan thinks it’s a five star film, and he’s a young boy.

[01:20:40] Logan: I think, if anything, the farthest this film gets from its marketing campaign and when it was originally released, I think it’ll do better for itself, because going into this film in theaters, thinking it was going to be a full blown war, thinking it was going to be like, mainly it fights with humans and apes, and there’s only one fucking scene. That’s really what you think it’s going to be. And the rest of it is really a revenge tale because Caesar’s son and wife was assessed they were assassinated by Woody Harrelson.

[01:21:11] Adam: It’s more than that.

[01:21:14] Logan: It is, but that’s how it starts. It starts with this.

[01:21:17] Adam: Like it is part of darkness.

[01:21:19] Logan: It’s all.

[01:21:20] Andy: Yeah, yeah.

[01:21:20] Adam: Which.

[01:21:20] Logan: It’s Apocalypse now.

[01:21:22] Andy: It certainly wants to be.

[01:21:24] Logan: Sorry, ape. Apocalypse now.

[01:21:26] Adam: I wanted to make sure when I rewatched it with my girlfriend. Girlfriend. I mean, she had never seen it. And there’s. There’s a piece of graffiti art in this movie. This is ape pocalypse now. And she just. And she’s never even seen. She’s never seen Apocalypse now. She was like, okay.

[01:21:45] Logan: Yeah.

[01:21:46] Adam: His highest shit at the time, too. So the fact that she was able.

[01:21:49] Logan: To get me, to be fair, to be fair, it doesn’t help, too, that when that graffiti shows up, it is in the center of the fucking.

Of all the nods to, like, its inspirations. The fact that it just paints it right in the frame.

[01:22:04] Andy: Yeah.

[01:22:05] Logan: Like, it’s. Yes, this is heart of darkness. But I will say, if you name this film crusade for the plan of the apes, I feel like you have less people going, like, well, that’s not a war. Even though it is. It is war and is about the effects that war has on the people around, especially the leaders that have to lead people into the battle.

[01:22:22] Adam: So anti war it is. Like, I think that great movie. It’s one of the best parts of it, I think. Is that what it has to say about war? Even though, again, given the advertisements being like, oh, this is like, you. That’s one thing. But you.

[01:22:42] Logan: Yeah.

[01:22:43] Adam: It’s a still profoundly anti war movie.

[01:22:47] Logan: Yeah.

[01:22:47] Adam: It is saying, like, what is war? Is it a bunch of guys gloriously dying, trying to stab each other? No. It’s a bunch of people locked in cages.

[01:22:57] Andy: Yeah.

[01:22:58] Adam: Having to deal with greater powers than themselves.

[01:23:03] Logan: Yeah.

[01:23:04] Adam: Clashing.

[01:23:05] Andy: Yeah.

[01:23:05] Adam: That’s usually what war is. It’s. It’s the little guy, big surprise, that gets hurt. The apes aren’t fooled. Fighting Woody Harrelson. The apes aren’t fighting Woody Harrelson’s enemies.

They’re stuck in the middle of it. And it sucks.

[01:23:23] Logan: Yeah. Yeah. It’s. I mean, again, one of the reasons why I think war worked well this time as well is because I think the poor. The performances shine just as bright and dawn just because we have so much time with the boys, the great ape crew, and new apex, as well as their human companion, who is, you know, Nova.

[01:23:43] Andy: Right.

[01:23:43] Logan: The cute little girl who is, you know, it is. It is. It is that aspect where it’s like, you know, even in theaters, when I was like, oh, this is not exactly what I wanted or I was expecting, but I’m. I’m down. Like Caesar shooting the human in, like, the first 30 minutes when, like, he’s, you know, the guy’s trying to pull for a gun, and then he flies off because Caesar is holding a shotgun at his weight, his hip. I was like, this is.

[01:24:06] Andy: Yeah, I like the.

[01:24:07] Logan: Like, it’s. This is like, this is already.

[01:24:09] Andy: I like the road journey.

[01:24:11] Logan: Yes.

[01:24:12] Andy: Portion of this movie a lot where it’s just kind of.

Here’s a handful of guys who know each other really well, and, you know, the main one is fucking going through it, and the others are trying to kind of hold him back from the brink.

[01:24:27] Adam: Yeah.

[01:24:28] Logan: Yeah.

[01:24:29] Andy: And I really like that aspect of it. And I think. I think probably my favorite thing about the movie has to do with kind of what? Kind of what you were saying, Adam. I didn’t really think about this movie at the time as being.

I mean, it’s patently obvious that it’s an anti war movie, but I wasn’t thinking of that is not what was registering to me as I was watching through it. What I was registering was Caesar’s arc, which is this arc of kind of hubris and pride and failure. But that ultimately is what kind of ties into that messaging. Like you were saying, there is no war here. There is no glorious charge into battle. It’s all of Caesar’s people trapped in a cage. Meanwhile, Caesar can’t get over his shit enough to get off the train of I have to go kill this fucker because I hate him. Like, he’s failing his people for 2 hours because of his own pride.

[01:25:31] Adam: Like, yeah, and then he has to be crucified.

[01:25:36] Logan: But I also mean, it’s. It’s. I love the fact that it’s just like, there are moments in this because, again, I. Jokes aside, about eight poc lifts now, I think apocalypse now. I love that. That is the inspiration. Heart of Darkness, the original novel that.

[01:25:50] Adam: The apocalypse inspired by, well, in some.

[01:25:53] Logan: Way, shape or form.

[01:25:54] Adam: Woody. Woody Harrelson leans in that so hard.

[01:25:57] Logan: Yes.

[01:25:57] Adam: And I didn’t notice it the first time I watched, you know, like, when it first came out, but watching it now, he’s even doing the Kurtz accent.

[01:26:05] Logan: Yeah, yeah, he is. No, he is.

[01:26:07] Adam: He’s occasionally doing a little better. This.

[01:26:12] Andy: Yeah, he’s kind of not.

[01:26:14] Adam: Not full on.

[01:26:16] Logan: And while I wouldn’t ask Carlson to put on the same weight Brando did for apocalypse now, lighting is everything in apocalypse now for how, like, horrifying Kurtz.

[01:26:24] Adam: Is, because they had to do that because he got so.

[01:26:29] Logan: The point where, like, when you do an apocalypse now homage and, like, Woody Harrelson’s. Kurtz s character is in fucking well.

[01:26:36] Andy: Yeah, standing in broad light, it’s like dumping exposition, kind of.

[01:26:41] Logan: He’s good, but he shaved his head.

[01:26:43] Andy: Like he did with a knife.

[01:26:45] Logan: Yeah, he did. And he also has a huge ass monologue towards the end of this film where he just.

[01:26:52] Adam: Planet of eight.

[01:26:53] Logan: He does the conquest reference, which you had to remind me.

[01:26:56] Andy: Well, it’s like. Yeah, it’s like, basically the opener of kind of the final leg of the movie. It’s like the two thirds mark of the film. He just kind of.

[01:27:05] Logan: It’s like, I’m going to go on.

[01:27:06] Andy: This, like, ten minute monologue. Caesar just standing there silently.

[01:27:11] Adam: Yeah, it’s worse than.

Again, I still like the scene, but it’s worse than how conquest does it again. Yeah, I’m a conquest of the plan of the Apes apologist, and I’ll stand.

[01:27:24] Logan: Conquest is good.

[01:27:26] Adam: You hate it. I don’t hate it. I saw your list yesterday.

[01:27:30] Logan: No, you put it sola.

[01:27:32] Adam: I don’t want to hear it.

[01:27:33] Andy: That means a relative. What did he rate?

[01:27:35] Logan: Escape is better.

[01:27:36] Adam: There’s.

[01:27:37] Logan: I mean.

[01:27:45] Adam: There is a figure, like overseer or mayor or whatever.

[01:27:52] Andy: Conquest.

[01:27:53] Adam: And the apes in conquest. And the apes are about to bash down the door of his bunker, and he’s like, this will be the end of human civilization, and the world will belong to a planet of apes. And it’s like, we will have proved ourselves inferior. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all that shit.

[01:28:12] Logan: And, like, much better.

[01:28:14] Adam: The ambiance is phenomenal, and in war of the planet, it’s just kind of like, you’re gonna replace us. Yeah, it’s gonna be a planet of eight.

[01:28:25] Andy: Well, it comes at the end of, like, basically Woody Harrelson speedrunning everything we probably should have learned about his thing throughout the movie, but instead, we’re learning it all in one scene.

[01:28:36] Logan: So he killed his own son. Like, yeah, it’s. It’s also weird because, again, dawn is phenomenal because it’s blocking it’s editing. Its energy never really lets up. And in war, it’s. God, when it gets, like, when it gets to the. When it gets to the camp, the pacing just goes down.

[01:28:51] Andy: Yeah.

[01:28:51] Logan: And it’s very slow. It’s not bad. But that scene in particular is literally. It is Harrelson in the background. He comes into the mid ground. He comes into the foreground to talk to Caesar, goes back to mid ground, and then it’s mid ground foreground for eight fucking minutes. And the shot doesn’t really add any. There’s no mustard on this fucking shot. Even when it cuts to, like, Caesar, they also don’t change up the shots for Caesar. Like, there’s no weird diploma, like, dutch angle. It is literally just straight on Serkis scowl the entire time. It’s like, okay, it’s so weird because it is.

[01:29:27] Adam: Dawn is such a visually striking movie.

[01:29:33] Andy: Well, yeah. And war looks, I will say.

[01:29:35] Logan: Yeah.

[01:29:35] Andy: To war’s credit, much of the movie does uphold that. A lot of the thoughtful aesthetic, I don’t think maybe as successfully or as universally as Don does. But those scenes that we’re complaining about are certainly more the exception than the rule in war. And it’s still like generally a very good looking movie.

[01:29:58] Logan: Again, the fuck.

[01:29:59] Adam: Dawn is hard to be compared to.

[01:30:01] Logan: Again, that’s why it is very hard to be compared. That’s why when we went into war, this rewatch, and I was like, how the fuck is war gonna keep any kind of semblance of how technologically cool dawn was? And in war, there are little details that they even add upon each ape. And there’s even new things with like, donkey, with like his design and with the alpha, Omega.

[01:30:21] Adam: His name is Red.

[01:30:23] Logan: His name is also.

[01:30:24] Adam: We’re talking about the gorilla.

[01:30:26] Logan: Yes, yes.

[01:30:28] Adam: Name is Red. But he is Donkey. He’s like. Like all of the apes who have sided with.

[01:30:34] Logan: Yeah, I thought they just called him Donkey the whole time. He didn’t have an actual name.

[01:30:38] Andy: But do they say his name?

[01:30:40] Logan: Well, cuz I know they probably.

Okay, okay. So there.

[01:30:47] Adam: I think it’s just showing who’s.

[01:30:50] Logan: You’ve read the novelization of.

[01:30:52] Andy: Well, no, you cannot hurt me. Not a real fan. I’ve seen any of the original sequels.

[01:30:58] Logan: You’ve looked at the chimpedia for one of these.

[01:31:02] Adam: It’s actually called Hestan pedia.

[01:31:04] Logan: That’s right.

I looked out the other day for Buck from rise because I want to make sure I had his name.

But also like winter. Winter is a small part of this film, but I really love how winter looks.

[01:31:15] Andy: Some of the winter is pretty grand.

[01:31:17] Logan: Loved it.

[01:31:18] Adam: I love the fact an ape that is scared is murdered by his own people because he was scared.

[01:31:24] Andy: Well, okay. Let’s talk about just that. The grimness of this film for a minute, because I think that is something that distinguishes it from its predecessors, is just miserable, how bleak it is. Yeah. I mean, we got. We got ape concentration camps. We got ape crucifixions. We. Apes killing ape on ape crime, apes.

[01:31:46] Logan: Getting whipped like it’s. Oh, my God.

[01:31:49] Andy: Yeah, it’s rough.

[01:31:51] Logan: It is.

[01:31:51] Andy: I mean, not just apes killing apes. We’ve got Caesar brutally killing another ape.

[01:31:57] Logan: I would argue one of the hardest shots in this film is at the very end, when red turns on the humans and the fucking guy just puts a gun to his head and you see the.

[01:32:07] Andy: Just lights out.

[01:32:08] Adam: You just see a gorilla.

[01:32:12] Logan: Mall. But he is so defeated in his face. I’m just like, I’ve done the one good thing. Maybe this will help again. Compared to when Caesar kills Koba and dawn, it’s a phenomenal moment. But it does have that blockbuster feel of, like, Koba gets, like, a little line of ape, don’t kill ape. And then, of course, Caesar gets Koba.

[01:32:35] Andy: He’s also the villain, and he has the darth maul death of falling down the chasm.

[01:32:41] Logan: But in that scene, it’s like, I mean, Caesar gets his. Get away from her, you bitch line where you want to. You want to root. And then when you get to war, Winter’s death is fucking accidental. And it’s so unceremonious.

[01:32:55] Adam: It’s so good.

[01:32:56] Logan: I really.

[01:32:59] Adam: There’s this albino gorilla. If you. If you’re watching for some reason, again and you haven’t watched it, are listening and you haven’t watched it.

Winter is a gorilla, an albino gorilla. So he’s completely white, who essentially betrays Caesar and the whole ape colony because he’s scared. He is.

[01:33:20] Logan: Yeah.

[01:33:21] Adam: Fearing that everybody’s gonna die and maybe he can save himself by selling out everyone else. And he has turned into a slave.

[01:33:29] Logan: Yeah.

[01:33:30] Adam: He’s turned into a slave by the people that he helped.

[01:33:33] Logan: And Caesar kills him on accident. Like, he really just wants to keep him quiet.

[01:33:39] Adam: Yeah.

[01:33:39] Logan: Because it’s like winter. Because, again, you also find out that winter is indirectly the reason why his son, like Caesar’s son and wife, are killed.

[01:33:47] Andy: Yeah.

[01:33:48] Logan: And so at that point, it is like, well, shit. Not saying that if you get revenge on winter, it makes it right, but it would give him a good cause. I mean, yeah. In most revenge films, when you hear that, it’s like, oh, get him right. But, like, the fact that, like, that happens only because Caesar is more worried about being found by humans and he is.

[01:34:07] Andy: Yeah. He’s entirely consumed in his mission in that moment and throughout, it’s.

[01:34:13] Logan: Again, I think it even parallels a little bit to, like, when. Because I always. I love to. In this rewatch of dawn when, like, when he kills Koba and he turns and he sees how everyone saw him do that. Even though he says Koba isn’t an ape anymore, he still let an ape die. Yeah, he let. He didn’t, like, do it, but he, like, he basically just, like, shoved it. Like, he just kind of, like, let him fall.

[01:34:35] Andy: But, like, he’s not, like, all of his.

[01:34:37] Logan: All of his people saw their leader kill one of their own.

[01:34:40] Andy: Yeah.

[01:34:41] Logan: And then to get to war, when it not only happens, but it happens accidentally.

[01:34:46] Andy: Casually. Accidentally killing other.

[01:34:49] Logan: Yeah.

[01:34:49] Andy: Front of other apes.

[01:34:51] Logan: And it’s just like. Again, it is just like. It is not what I wanted, what I thought war was gonna be. But, man, on Rewatch, I think as years go on, it’s gonna be like, I don’t know, man. This movie kind of works in some places, especially when it doesn’t. When the pacing doesn’t die off. Like, when it gets.

[01:35:07] Andy: Yeah.

[01:35:08] Logan: When it gets to the camp, it dies down for a while, but when it becomes the great escape in some way, shape or form where they’re trying to get all the apes out, it’s when the film’s, like, creative juices clearly start flowing. Some really cool ideas happen with the shots and also joke stuff. Because I think another thing, too, that is, like, the film is not tonally inconsistent. It is just like. It is just always kind of jarring when bad ape, played by Steve Zahn very well, is, like, clearly the comedic, you know, light hearted relief that is much needed in a film like this. But every time he pops up, it just feels like we don’t get enough or it feels a little bit out of place.

[01:35:46] Andy: Yeah. And he’s great. Again, I love. I think bad ape is really charming and endearing in this film.

[01:35:54] Logan: Perfect for me.

[01:35:55] Andy: I also. I will probably. I’ll diverge with you a little bit. I’ll probably diverge with both of you on this. I think the.

I would say it is inconsistent, tonally.

[01:36:09] Logan: Okay.

[01:36:09] Andy: Which I think I can see that I don’t have a problem with this movie being bleak and grim and down as we’ve talked about.

But, man, there is a lot of waffling between that grimness, that bleakness, and, like, kind of goofy adventure tropes. Like, bad, like, the great escape antics, like Harrelson chewing the fuck out of the scenery and just being this ham.

And so that was a tough thing for me that I wasn’t. Never really felt like the film was.

I didn’t feel like it, like, totally found its footing, tonally. And so I think that’s where my issues start to pop up, especially once it gets to the, like, the camp and then forward, because then it gets. Starts getting really dark and also light in weird moments.

[01:37:07] Adam: On this rewatch, I.

That hit to a degree with me as well. I mean, it’s. Again, I think it’s why Don was elevated to a degree, because I’ve seen Don so many more.

[01:37:21] Andy: Sure.

[01:37:21] Adam: But also seeing war again. Okay, so it isn’t a perfect movie, whereas I would argue Don is damn near a movie.

[01:37:30] Logan: I’d agree with you.

[01:37:32] Adam: But with war, especially bad ape, there’s such an intelligence and such a level of evolution. Evolution. Pun intended, I suppose, with Caesar and all the other ape characters where it’s like, they are people.

These are people. Now, in dawn, we get there by the end, but in the beginning, you’re still like, oh, wow, these alien apes are talking in sign language, but, you know, in war, they’re talking to each other with their voices and shit.

[01:38:08] Logan: Yes.

[01:38:08] Adam: Yes.

Basically, with bad ape in dawn, he would have fit maybe more.

[01:38:17] Andy: Yeah.

[01:38:17] Adam: But in war, he feels weird sometimes because it’ll be a drawn out weird. Oh, no.

[01:38:25] Andy: Yeah.

[01:38:26] Adam: Oh, no.

[01:38:28] Logan: It’s with Maurice.

[01:38:30] Andy: Oh, no.

[01:38:31] Adam: It’s like, okay, this feels very, like, juvenile in his innings, in his mind, and I like bad apes, but, like, there are these odd jokes that kind of just drag in a weird kind of caveman humor away. That doesn’t work as well.

[01:38:48] Andy: And, I mean, I kind of hate to point at bad ape because I like the character and I wouldn’t write him out of the movie.

[01:38:56] Adam: Yeah.

[01:38:58] Andy: But, yeah, he is kind of one of the most, I guess, like, kind of glaring things you can point to of, like, when this movie feels like it’s not entirely sure what it’s going for. Totally. Because. Yeah, there are some of those moments, I think, because bad ape is used for comic relief so many times throughout the movie, especially his.

Not necessarily his intellect, but his way of speaking is used as comic relief.

[01:39:25] Logan: Yeah.

[01:39:26] Andy: Then in moments that aren’t necessarily meant to be funny or in fact, are meant to be very serious when he reacts, it’s like, is that another gag like, is he. Is he being silly?

[01:39:38] Adam: Yeah.

[01:39:39] Logan: Yeah, it’s bad ape. He didn’t know. He’s just acting like bad ape, but bad ape. I mean, it’s just. It is one of those things where it’s like, yeah, I feel like it is.

Again, I think even with similar to rise in a way where it’s like, you know, one we get. When we finally get to the great escape aspect of the film finale, when they’re just, like, trying to chicken run their way. All the fucking apes out of there, it’s like, oh, thank God. Thank God. Bad apes there. Think I’m Maurice. Is there. Thank God Rocket’s not dead. Like, rocket, like, basically coming in, starting shit just to get thrown in jail and be like, we got this dude. We’re going to do 36 steps. That’s where the holes at. And it’s like, oh, thank God. It’s been 20 minutes since Woody Harrelson said he decapitated his son and, like, some of his soldiers. This is kind of what I needed right now. And that it’s like, yeah, it’s a breath of fresh air. It’s also, like, I think to me, at least personally, why it doesn’t bother me as much is, like, this is not the first time in a play of the Apes sequel where, like, it is totally, but still good. Like, escape is one of the most totally inconsistent films. Like, in terms of, like, it is way too silly at times, but the.

[01:40:40] Adam: Bleakest movie of out of all, dude, I kid you not. Cornelius ends, asks a dude to give him a pistol to fucking shoot himself. If they are caught by the government, give us. Give us a chance to kill ourselves, to take our own lives. It’s like, jesus Christ, you just spelled it out.

[01:41:02] Logan: This is also the same film where Zira plays a dress up and all the humans are like, oh, my God, you look so good in that dress.

[01:41:09] Adam: Like, such a grim moment when they.

[01:41:13] Logan: Like an apes film, at a certain point, it’s like, yeah, it could be totally inconsistent, but at least for me, it’s like, as long as it still works, personally for me, and I think war does, it is still inconsistent, but I think it’s like, the fact that it’s like. It does seem like it reeves at some points where it’s like, all right, we need a little bit of respite. Let’s go back to the boys, because I think that’s one thing, too, in the middle of the film, is that you don’t you lose Maurice and rocket and bad ape for a good chunk of time.

[01:41:37] Andy: Yeah.

[01:41:38] Logan: And then when they sneak back in, it’s like, oh, thank God, the boys.

[01:41:41] Andy: Yeah, yeah.

[01:41:42] Logan: How they gonna get him back? Like, how are we gonna do that? Then that’s when, you know, Nova has, like, that phenomenal, like, that moment where she gives Caesar the doll. And that leads to one of the best moments in war, in my opinion, which is like Harrelson getting the doll and ultimately getting infected, which is, I think, the best Harold moment in the entire film in terms just like, him trying to tell Caesar to kill him because he can’t say it anymore because he’s fucking losing his mind. And then ultimately taking, like, Caesar just standing there. You could take pitiful. Just, you can take a 5 seconds of Caesar getting whipped in the camp and then take 5 seconds of bad ape walking in snow boots and thumbs up in and just try to be like, do you think this is the same film? And it is like, that is the inconsistency where it really is just like, oh, shit. It’s like, I mean, there’s some great moment. Again, there are great moments in this film, especially, especially from Serkis where it’s like, you know, I love the scene right before he gets punished, when he yells stop, when, like, he basically is like, being the leader.

[01:42:41] Adam: He’s Moses, dude. He sees the, he sees the Hebrew being lashed by the Egyptian and calls out to his own detriment.

[01:42:53] Logan: There’s a stop.

[01:42:54] Adam: It is so obvious.

[01:42:55] Logan: And there is so, yeah, it’s moments like that where there’s. There’s a reason why when, you know, the director of Kingdom Westball and, like, the cast of kingdom, like, when people are asking them about, like, they’re not saying, what did Matt Reeves, you know, tell you what you should think about for this next film? They were all being asked what was Andy’s advice about? What was Andy’s advice about that? Where it’s like, andy is the fucking heart of these films, regardless of who’s directing. And thankfully, the people who are directing are all, are all on board and the writers are too. But, like, without Andy, you would think it wouldn’t work. And thankfully, we will see with kingdom that it can work. Yeah, but it is. It is different. It is different.

[01:43:36] Adam: It isn’t just Andy. I mean, I think by the.

[01:43:38] Logan: He’s a big part of it, is what I mean.

[01:43:40] Adam: Oh, yeah, absolutely is. I mean, I’m not discrediting that, but I think there’s so many of these other characters that kind of come to the forefront in the creative process, like Terry Notary.

Terry Notary is the guy behind Rocket.

He is the actor behind Rocket, but he is the ape boot.

[01:44:00] Andy: He’s, like, the instructor.

[01:44:01] Adam: Yeah, he is the motion coach. And, I mean, he has done this in so many other Weta productions. In other productions in general. I mean, he was the motion coach on the hobbit, right?

[01:44:15] Logan: Yeah.

[01:44:15] Adam: And he was like, hey, this how you move like a dwarf. So you move like a hobbit smile. You move like an elf, an orc, or whatever. He was that good at what he did.

[01:44:23] Logan: I’m also pretty sure that he was the motion capture coach for Infinity War and Endgame. Of course he was. They ultimately brought him in. He was one of Thanos henchmen because he was so good at it. And they’re like, we want you to play his voice as well as play his body double. He’s also. Which I think always made Andy laugh when I would bring it up. He also played Buck the dog in the Harrison Ford film Call the Wild, which I still need to show you the.

[01:44:47] Adam: Yeah, I didn’t seen some of it.

[01:44:48] Andy: I didn’t know that dog was Mo.

[01:44:50] Logan: Cap till you told me he wasn’t originally supposed to be. Then they decided last minute to do so.

Seeing Terry notary pretend to be a dog in gray pajamas is much different than watching Terry notary walk around as an eight foot gray pajamas. What?

[01:45:04] Adam: And I bring Terry up because he’s important.

[01:45:08] Logan: He’s absolutely back for King, you know? Like, yes, he.

[01:45:11] Adam: He is part of that. That.

[01:45:13] Andy: Does he play someone in kingdom, or is he just the coach?

[01:45:16] Adam: Not to my knowledge.

[01:45:17] Logan: I think he’s ape school, but, I.

[01:45:19] Adam: Mean, he was part of the. You know, like, he’s the.

[01:45:22] Andy: On the team.

[01:45:23] Logan: Yeah.

Terry very much feels like Serkis at some point, knowing he’s probably. Serkis is probably gonna get too big to the point where, like, you know, once these films go off to do their own thing, he’s not gonna be as fully involved as he wants. So you need to have somebody you can be like, all right. You can handle the ape shit. That’s all that really matters. You can ask for poisoners if you want. I’m gonna go do venom two.

[01:45:44] Andy: Yeah.

[01:45:45] Logan: Or the jungle. But he’s gonna do his own thing. Like, it’s like Serkis. Serkis wants to direct. Serkis wants to do other things.

[01:45:50] Adam: And Toby Kebble dabbled in that, too.

[01:45:53] Logan: Yeah, like.

[01:45:54] Adam: Like, Toby. I mean, of course. Who plays Koba? He.

In Kong. Skull island is calm for most of the time.

[01:46:03] Logan: That’s right. Yeah.

[01:46:05] Adam: I think initially, Terry Notary was the motion capture for Kong.

And then when they did reshoots, they’re like, hey, Toby, you did Koba. You want to play Kong? And he did. And it’s like, it’s phenomenal. He still does a great job with it.

[01:46:27] Logan: I mean, again, it’s at a point now in terms of the process demanding making these three films that, like, when kingdom is doing its runs.

[01:46:34] Adam: Like, there are some leading in everything.

[01:46:36] Logan: There are some interviewers that are, like, trying to, like, lean real close to make sure they say the phrase ape school because they’ll get excited.

[01:46:43] Andy: Yeah.

[01:46:43] Adam: It’s like, oh, fuck.

[01:46:44] Logan: You did ape school again? Because. Yeah, because I think with kingdom similar to the trilogy, it’s like they basically went to New Zealand for, like, months to do ape school. And then they shot, you know, where they need to shoot and whatnot. And it’s pretty much same process throughout. And, I mean, yeah, it’s just very clear that, like, in these three films, even with rise with, like, you know, a lot of Andy’s performance doesn’t really come in until later in the film when he’s more fully grown. Caesar, a little bit. Yeah. You can tell he is putting his fucking heart and soul into every bit of this movie. It did all three movies to the point where it’s like. Like, I don’t know if you’re gonna do more of these. It’s gonna be hard to fill those shoes. Like, it’s like, it’s genuinely that type of performance where it’s like, I remember conversations with dawn being like, man, how the fuck, how the fuck would the Oscars. How could you convince the academy to let this man get an oscar for the. For Caesar? Because it’s just like, just watching the previz, like, great pajamas stuff and then go into, like, the actual. In all three of these films, it.

[01:47:43] Adam: Is just like the emotion that transfers through.

[01:47:46] Logan: Yes. Yeah, well, like, hearing.

[01:47:48] Andy: I would. I mean, that would be my big educational recommendation regarding these two films. Watch the trilogy, of course, but, like, go if you haven’t, check out the special features and the endless reels of behind the scenes to final product side by side comparisons of just the performances and how they come through and, like, you know, it’s equal parts great acting and great digital artistry to bring it to life. It’s just mind blowing to see it all laid out like that.

[01:48:25] Logan: Very, very clear with the Caesar performance that it’s like he had years of, you know, praise for Gollum, praise for King Kong. But you probably heard a few naysayers being like, ah, but how much of that is really him? And how much of that is the VFX on top of him? And he goes like, go fuck yourself. It’s all me, baby. Like they’re gonna, yes, they’re gonna aid, but I, they, it looks so good because I’m so good. It’s like, what? The Caesar performance?

[01:48:50] Andy: It’s like the. Did you need the digital artists to facilitate that transfer? And that’s a lot of work. It’s not just like plug his performance into a computer and out comes the monkey. But they aren’t really, really, for the most part, at least in the shots where you’re really focused on his expressions and performance, they aren’t really altering anything. I mean, they’re altering it anatomically.

[01:49:18] Adam: They’re plugging it into a model.

[01:49:20] Andy: They’re altering the anatomy of it, but not the expression of it. And it’s amazing the clarity with which it comes through. Both because of how well he and all the other actors embody primates and also because of the talented VFX artists.

[01:49:36] Logan: Yeah, with Weta, I mean, what? It just fucking nails it in these films. And it’s just that the trilogy itself shows just how important it is to have a visual eye for the effects in camera.

[01:49:50] Andy: While part of your pipeline.

[01:49:53] Logan: Again, it is something where it’s like fascinating to think that it’s like, how could we forget about that until this year when fucking minus ₩1 for best visual effects on $16. Yeah, like, it’s nothing compared to this film. And it’s like listening to director being like, yeah, I just, I knew visually what I wanted. I knew my team. I just went to them and we worked together so closely and it’s like, that seems like the same mentality. The apes team, right? In terms of just like from ape school to the performance on set to the shot composition with Reeves and Weta, like everything just feels like everyone’s on board. Because if you’re not on board and you think all those great pajamas look silly, you’re gonna fuck this up. You have to fully commit to just.

[01:50:35] Adam: Like this theater of the mind.

[01:50:37] Logan: It works so well.

[01:50:39] Adam: It is straight, raw acting. It is some, yeah, some ancient athenian on the stage with goofy ass masks. Level of just, you need to treat this like Shakespeare. You need to fully be in the moment. You need to just flat out treat this as seriously as these artists are taking it.

[01:51:06] Logan: Yeah.

[01:51:06] Adam: And if you can do that half, not half, but like close to half the work is done.

[01:51:14] Andy: Yeah, yeah, well, and on the, like, the reverence is needed in the technical cruise part. Like having that understanding of what the VFX artists will need you to provide them with in order to do their job is half the battle. Which like these movies clearly understand.

You know, the reason everybody points to like Marvel and like those big, these big studio franchise films that kind of have dodgy VFX is because they’re plugging in directors who have never worked with any of this stuff before and they’re not bothering to get them on that process. They’re kind of just like, hey, yeah, you direct the movie, we’ll take care of the rest. And the VFX artists are drowning.

[01:51:58] Logan: And like most franchise with like universes or trying to have connected universes, one delay or one change in a schedule fucks up the premise, sometimes narrative. So they have to change things around. And thank God for these films not really being tied, having to work like really. If anything, I bet war had more reshoots in terms of adding more levity or bad ape stuff or more, more recent rocket things, if anything where it’s like we need a little bit more.

[01:52:25] Andy: Time in the spotlight.

[01:52:26] Logan: I mean, again, it’s like, it’s, I could see a studio head just sitting there being like, I like this. But you’re really gonna, you’re gonna throw some people off by how fucking dark and grim this is. And being like, ah, well we got bad ape, but it’s like, yeah, but how much bad ape at the end of it? Okay, fine.

[01:52:43] Adam: It’s, it’s one of the things that, on a rewatch that, I mean about the grimness and the darkness and just kind of how weird this movie is on a rewatch it gave me more of an appreciation because there is this, again, very grim but like nuanced in between and reverence that begins to really build up in this movie towards that original 1968 film. Yeah, there, I mean the dawn of the planet the Apes is such a standalone great thing by itself. Yeah, it takes inspiration from what came before. Oh, feel war really leans into, especially with some of the imagery which, I mean, comes to the crucified apes that look a lot like the scarecrows from the original movie. Yada, yada, yada, all that.

But in just the bleakness of the soundtrack and the visuals and the north star of that original movie, the grimness and the bleakness of that future feel warm in its own unique ways. Does that. But also in a very, we’re following. Yeah, we are, we are, we are moving towards this stomach dropping future. And even if Caesar’s people reach the promised land.

There is still a very grim, dreadful future for us.

[01:54:26] Andy: Yeah.

[01:54:27] Adam: Present in this. And they don’t pull any punches with that. In dawn, you know, you see. Is it Jason Clark? Is that. Yeah. Jason Clark’s character walks into the darkness and fades away.

[01:54:40] Logan: Yeah.

[01:54:42] Adam: To acknowledge that humans are stepping out the story. But there’s some silver lining there. It’s like, oh, it could be any future for sure.

In war, there is none of that.

[01:54:54] Andy: Humanity gets buried under its own arrogance.

[01:54:58] Adam: Exactly. You see Woody Harrelson choking on his own blood in his own vocal cords and his brain not being able to form human speech anymore. You see it and you hang on that, and you’re like, shit.

I wish the best for Caesar’s people, but I realize that we’re done.

[01:55:19] Logan: I mean. I mean, I love. I mean, you brought it up when, cuz, like, when Andy and I, we. Andy and I watched it, just each other. We watched rise together. Then Andy and I and Andy’s wife, we watched Don and whore together. And then after I came home, and then we talked a little bit, you and I. Yeah. And then the one thing that I loved that you brought up, because it popped in my head, too, is when the army is coming in to get Harrelson, only to find out that he’s lost. There’s this brief moment when Caesar stands up to see the avalanche coming down. He turns to an army looking at him, and the first thing that one of the guys does is just automatically point a gun. Like, if they’re not even thinking about the fact that, like, why is this ape looking up? They’re just like, we kill apes. Like, it’s so. Like, we are so blinded by our rage and how much we’ve lost from the apes. We have forgotten that we did this to ourselves.

They didn’t do this to us.

[01:56:14] Adam: Another phenomenal thing about the. Or detail, rather, I suppose, about the humans coming to take out Woody Harrelson’s character to take out the colonel, is you never see a single one of their faces.

[01:56:31] Logan: Yes, they are.

[01:56:33] Andy: Yeah.

[01:56:34] Adam: The soldiers who come to fight the colonel’s forces, you never see any of them. They are completely covered up in better gear than the colonel. The colonel is fully a, like, deviant of the United States army, which is a phenomenal, like, step. I mean, it’s very heart of darkness. But when you see them all looking at Caesar, you can’t see anybody’s eyes.

[01:57:02] Logan: You can’t tell.

[01:57:03] Adam: You can’t see a single human, human face. It’s like stormtroopers it’s just these soulless soldiers that are being sent to fight this last war before they’re crushed under nature by a literal fucking avalanche.

[01:57:22] Logan: I mean, I also like the fact that, like, there is a character in this film that you feel like, oh, could this be a Jason Clark esque human that is trying to learn about apes? With PreAchER, who’s HaRrELSON’s, like, not right hand man, but he’s the crossbow shooting younger, younger guy who survives the first battle that ultimately goes up the ranks. There is clearly moments of empathy in his face when he realizes that there’s more to these apes than just, you know, they killed us. Yeah, there are enemies. And at the very end, when you think, you know, there could be something here, he’s. Honestly, he’s the reason why Caesar ends up dying, because he gets shot inside by what? By his bolt. And it’s red who has to take out preacher. And it’s a subversion of what you think at that point where it’s like, oh, there’s at least one good human. And in this situation, it’s like, not really. Not really. Not in this situation. We need to get the fuck out of here.

[01:58:19] Adam: There. You said it. Not in this situation.

[01:58:21] Logan: Yes, there.

[01:58:22] Adam: There is a scenario where preacher is given the time to be able.

[01:58:29] Andy: Of course. Yeah.

[01:58:30] Adam: To come back from this. But I think that’s what makes War of the plan of the apes such a good anti war film, is that there are these plenty of characters who are given completely reasonable scenarios and how they react, but they’re not in the right. Yeah, there’s so much that is just up shit creek without a paddle where the. They aren’t given the time. They aren’t given the. The information to be better people. They just have to act.

[01:59:01] Logan: Yeah.

[01:59:01] Adam: They just have to act. And they act in very understandable, shitty ways.

[01:59:07] Andy: Yeah. They’re also acting under broad, you know, humanity wide ignorance. I mean, one thing I kind of love about this whole trilogy is there’s not really ever any acknowledgement on humanity’s part that they caused this. Like, that they did this. I mean, obviously, we know as the viewers who were there at every step of, like, rise and seeing the, you know, Al Z development and all that, like. But.

[01:59:39] Adam: And the colonel is one of the few that seems to recreate.

[01:59:45] Andy: But aside from, like, a couple individuals throughout these movies, broadly, humanity seems completely unaware.

[01:59:52] Logan: Like, the only other person I think that admits that it’s us is Carrie Russell, because she’s a. She used to be part of that.

[01:59:58] Adam: She lit. She has the know how.

[02:00:01] Logan: And literally every time she talks, they all get fucking pissed at her. She’s like, what? Do you want us to be friends with the AIDS?

[02:00:06] Andy: Right?

[02:00:06] Logan: They’re like.

[02:00:08] Adam: It’s like, no, they had no choice in the matter. We did.

[02:00:10] Andy: Yeah. It’s like she gets shut up. Like, woke liberal, like, you know, telling you what happened.

[02:00:18] Logan: Yeah. Because that’s another fascinating thing, too, is, like, the fact that in, you know.

[02:00:21] Adam: George Washington didn’t cut down a cherry tree. Oh, well, you fucking hate America because, like, the good.

[02:00:27] Logan: The good humans and rise are really just like, oh, my gosh, Caesar. And this whole thing is kind of pretty cool.

[02:00:32] Andy: Yeah.

[02:00:32] Logan: Until, like. Until, like, ultimately, Franco is like, listen, I I don’t know. I could have never realized what I did. But I know you being with me, it’s not gonna. It can’t be this way. You have to go on your own. And dawn is a mix of, you know, the CD. It was Kerry Russell understanding, but it’s mainly just Jason Clark being like, isn’t that fucking fascinating? Look how many apes just fucking popped out of nowhere.

[02:00:55] Adam: Do they look. Do they look just like apes to you?

[02:00:58] Logan: I mean.

[02:00:59] Adam: No, like, that line.

[02:01:00] Andy: Yeah.

[02:01:01] Logan: So good.

[02:01:01] Adam: It’s so, like, so many people I’ve heard, like, poo poo Jason, because he’s so good. He’s less interesting than Caesar. Because. Caesar. Yeah. Because, of course, like, on rewatches, Jason Clark becomes phenomenal.

[02:01:20] Logan: Yeah.

[02:01:20] Adam: In new ways each time. Because his eyes, those baby blues, the.

And he’s a normal person. Right.

[02:01:29] Andy: Without.

[02:01:30] Adam: And I’m not trying to take away from war right now. Cause we’re talking about war.

[02:01:33] Andy: But, I mean, Jason Clark, about the trilogy.

[02:01:36] Adam: Yeah. You know, I mean. I mean, Jason’s character is so normal. He is such. He’s just a guy. Yeah, he is just a guy. But he is played in a way that it’s like, I would hope that my decencies and my. My goodness, as a person that I perceive myself would be able to rise to the occasion like his character.

[02:02:01] Logan: Yeah.

[02:02:02] Adam: And that is such a subtle performance.

[02:02:04] Andy: Yes.

[02:02:05] Logan: The amount of. The amount of acting that is in his face when Caesar points the gun at him, when they find the gun in the case where he’s just like, that’s not me.

[02:02:13] Adam: I’m sorry.

[02:02:14] Logan: I was like, I’m sorry. Listen, I I can’t stop you. But I also get it. Like, there’s. There is in this face. It’s like, what the fuck, man?

[02:02:21] Adam: Of course this chimp is going to blow my head off right now. Because we have failed him.

[02:02:26] Logan: Because his kid. His kid just found a gun, and we were not supposed to have him.

[02:02:30] Adam: Yeah.

[02:02:31] Logan: It says a lot when war. The good human in war is the child that can’t speak, is affected by the disease. It ultimately will be the future of, like, some kind of humanity.

[02:02:42] Adam: And she’s been hurt.

Nova’s character is one of the most melancholy parts of the entire movie.

[02:02:51] Logan: Yeah.

[02:02:51] Adam: Because they straight up kill her dad, and then they are lost with. I mean, they’re stuck with her.

[02:03:03] Logan: Yeah.

[02:03:05] Adam: And there is never a full on, like, oh, we’ve resolved.

[02:03:11] Andy: Yeah. There’s never really an acknowledgement of it. Like, yeah. I mean, obviously, Maurice tries to make.

[02:03:18] Adam: The best of the situation, but Caesar is so messed up from his own trauma that he can never fully address this child. I mean, he does to a degree.

[02:03:29] Logan: Yeah.

Yeah. It’s one of those things where it’s like.

[02:03:32] Adam: Yeah.

[02:03:33] Logan: That’s when he first cares about Nova. As, you know, being is when Nova nearly gets caught, when she brings the toy to him. And it’s just like this feeling of, like, well, shit, I mean, I’ve been an asshole. This child.

[02:03:45] Adam: I have to address what I have done.

[02:03:47] Logan: Yeah. She is a human. Yes. And humans killed my. My son and my wife, but she’s also a child and had nothing to do with.

[02:03:53] Andy: Yeah, boy.

[02:03:55] Logan: I can’t really. Yeah.

[02:03:56] Adam: It’s. It’s very bluntly, like a reflection of Caesar. It’s. It’s the yin to his yang.

[02:04:04] Logan: Yeah.

[02:04:04] Adam: Like, he has lost children. She has lost a father, which the movie doesn’t delve into too deeply on her part, but it’s.

[02:04:12] Logan: No, no, no.

[02:04:13] Adam: It’s quite frankly presented that, like, oh, you’ve robbed her of something. You’ve been robbed of something. You gotta deal with this.

[02:04:22] Logan: And even if it’s not her father, it’s the one person who didn’t want her to die because of the disease. In the Alpha Omega. Like, crew. Like, he’s an l. He’s an ex alpha omega who just, like, I’m getting out of here because they’re gonna fucking kill you. Like, if it’s like, it’s one of those things too. It’s like, yeah. Whether it’s dad or not is the one person that has given her any kind of kindness in the last few days, and he’s the enemy again. Adds to the anti war matter. Just like, yeah, he’s the enemy, but, like, he does a good thing. Does it make it better? Like, the gray. The morality in there is so gray. In such a phenomenal way that it’s like you would have never, I never would have expected this coming out of dawn, like, in theaters being like, this is what the next film is going to be like. Like, this is genuinely surprised, I think is, even in a point, bolder than Don. But that’s why I think doesn’t work as well, because I feel like the boldness doesn’t negate the inconsistency in tone as well as the fact that it’s like, not only does it have to do all this, it also has to tie it up in a buff. It’s, in a way that’s nice.

[02:05:21] Adam: It is.

[02:05:21] Logan: But I love, I love the end two of war, personally.

[02:05:24] Adam: It is a quiet movie. I mean, like when the apes come, I mean, Caesar and the gang come upon those again, you know, alpha omega guys that have been killed.

[02:05:37] Logan: Yes, yes.

[02:05:38] Adam: And, and I think very few war movies that have a Sci-Fi goofy angle to it. I mean, you know, Star wars or whatever. Star Trek. I mean, these things that deal with war but are very sci-fi I mean, this war for the planet the apes will show you, like, oh, soldiers killing their own men and these kind of grim, blunt, gross constants of war that we don’t talk about, talk about or fi.

And it’s a movie about monkeys.

[02:06:21] Logan: I mean, one of the testaments of the film and I think was really? Because, like, you had never seen this all the way through, right? This is your first time seeing it in full. It’s first time your wife had seen.

[02:06:29] Adam: It because you’re scared of chimpanzees.

[02:06:34] Logan: But I was really excited to see you both get to the realization of why they. The disease and how it evolves, the fact that they can’t speak. And I’m like, yeah. The thing that’s so crazy about this is that the film, this film is giving a canonical reason why humans are so fucking stupid.

Film it, why they don’t speak and why they’re so dumb and wear caveman outfits.

[02:06:58] Adam: It.

[02:06:58] Logan: It’s so, so well done.

[02:07:00] Adam: It’s pun intended. Struck me dumb in the theater.

[02:07:05] Logan: Yeah, me too.

[02:07:07] Adam: Especially in that. I mean, with, with nova, it’s. I was like, oh, dang, they’re explaining this. Cool. And then when Woody Harrelson’s character again is just pathetically writhing and it is so grim. I was like, it was just this phenomenal moment as a fan of the classic.

It was so good. It wasn’t just like, oh, we regressed to animals. No, we are robbed of language and, and we cannot communicate with each other. And naturally, that will make us animals.

[02:07:43] Logan: Yes.

[02:07:43] Adam: It is horrific. It is so scary.

[02:07:47] Logan: And it was just great to see, like, you, as well as your wife, have that realization of, like, wait, the doll that’s gonna make fucking Harold. Like, you’re like, her being like, hold on.

[02:07:59] Andy: Yeah, yeah.

[02:08:00] Logan: I was like, wait a minute, he’s gonna get the virus. And I was like, I love. I love how the movie is making it just obvious enough, but it’s not feeling like it’s like rockets winking at the camera. Being like, that’s an important thing you should worry about for later. Like a fucking George of the jungle bit. Like, it’s like the film is giving you all the information you need, but it’s not overselling. Well, I really love that about and.

[02:08:21] Adam: The commitment to good, because Caesar isn’t worried about that. Caesar is not worried. Caesar. Caesar, by this point, is not worried about the fate of humanity, is worried about his people. And so you are having this existential collapse of the human race in your periphery as a human observer in this Sci-Fi story. While that is happening, that is not the story that is being focused on. It is Caesar trying to save his people. And that somehow, I think, makes it scarier because it’s like, oh, the main characters can’t even be bothered by the collapse of your.

[02:09:05] Andy: Right. We already sealed our fate. Like, you’re right. We’re just watching it play out now. But we’re no longer the main characters.

[02:09:13] Logan: Yeah.

[02:09:14] Andy: No.

[02:09:15] Adam: Which Kingdom of the planet expands upon? But we aren’t going to talk about that right now. As much as I’m shaking behind the mic trying to talk a button to keep myself from talking about this, he’s.

[02:09:29] Logan: Slowly been taking off pieces of his clothing and he has bad ape and paint.

[02:09:33] Adam: What a wonderful day.

[02:09:35] Andy: Yes, of course. The kingdom of the planet, the movie that inspired us to do this trilogy. At this time, we will be doing a review of. So you can check that out, our website.

[02:09:47] Adam: Little, little bonus thing for those on the Patreon who are subscribed to raid Shadow Patreon, we have not set up.

You have to wait a week. If you’re one of our normal listeners, you can listen right now.

[02:10:02] Andy: If you’re one of our true chimpanzees, you can listen now.

[02:10:06] Adam: If you’ve got the blue chip paid for the chimp pass, you got that proximus, that proximus cash.

[02:10:18] Logan: If you’ve gone to at least three coordinated odd trilogies, I mean, again, there’s. We could really talk about this for another hour, in all honesty.

[02:10:30] Adam: But just dawn and war have, has so much that you can unpack. Rise is pretty simple. Again, dawn and war, it really brings, I mean, again, it reminds me again as the classic chimp. Classic chimp. The classic apes fan that I am. That first movie, phenomenal. I mean, 1968, plan the apes, ten.

[02:10:53] Logan: Out of ten, perfect film.

[02:10:54] Adam: It’s one of the greatest Sci-Fi films ever made.

Then beneath the plan of the apes sucks ass.

[02:11:02] Logan: I honestly never want to watch that film again, but I would watch it.

[02:11:05] Adam: I will, because I like these movies too much. I’ll watch it for Andy.

But then you, you’ve got escape and conquest.

[02:11:16] Logan: Yeah.

[02:11:16] Adam: That follow it. And these are movies that give you something to chew on philosophically, arguably, socially. And dawn and war do that, too. It’s like planet the apes isn’t just, and it has never been from that movie, movie from that first novel. It has never been, oh, what if monkeys were in charge and we are the animals? It’s never been that. It has always held a lens up to humanity. And that is why I think dawn is one of the best ones, because it feels, again, we kept saying biblical.

[02:11:58] Andy: Yeah. It feels like we’re reliving, like, mythologized early days of the human race.

[02:12:06] Adam: We are on a loop. Humanity is done, and apes are going through their own biblical.

They are having to. There’s a, again, one of the worst of the plan of the apes sequels from the original saga is the last one. It’s battle for the plan of the apes. And there’s a scene, spoiler alert. If you ever want to watch one of the worst original sequels, plan of the apes. But there’s a scene where Caesar, the original Caesar, is confronting a gorilla who killed his son in an accident, essentially. But Caesar’s son is dead now because of this character. And Caesar chases this guy up a tree, and he falls. He pushes this character, this gorilla, off the tree, and he dies.

And it’s a slow, agonizing, not well done scene. But the gorilla falls out of the tree because Caesar, like, pushes him off, not just, like, full on shoving him, but, like, pushes him off by intimidation. And all the apes freak the fuck out because, like, ape, no, kill ape. And there’s a human character observing this.

[02:13:32] Logan: God. That’s right.

[02:13:33] Adam: There’s a human and he, there are more than a few.

[02:13:37] Logan: It’s been a long time, and we watched it together.

[02:13:41] Adam: A human character asked, like, okay, wait, what are they doing? What just happened?

And the main human character of this movie says, I guess you could say they just joined the human race.

And I remember thinking that during the Calvary charge of dawn, when they are just shooting and dying, and it’s like, I guess you could say they just joined the human race again. That is dawn and war. It’s like kind of. They. It is paradise lost.

[02:14:12] Andy: It is.

[02:14:12] Adam: They have left the garden.

[02:14:14] Logan: Yes.

[02:14:14] Adam: They have become us. They are an echo of us. We created them, and now they’ve got to live with the bullshit that we have inherited upon the thing that, yeah.

[02:14:27] Logan: The best aspect of a planet sequel or just film could be. It’s just interesting, just on a base level where it’s like the worst ones. I mean, honestly, it’s like, about battle is like, battle is like one of the worst ones, technically, like the second to worst, but, like, even then, it’s fucking interesting in a lot of the ways it’s talking. Like that line is, yeah, beneath is genuinely just dog shit because it’s so fucking uninteresting.

[02:14:51] Adam: Until the end.

[02:14:52] Logan: Yes.

[02:14:53] Adam: Which they drop like insane shit about nuclear worship.

[02:14:58] Logan: Oh, my God.

[02:15:00] Adam: Nuclear worship. Sorry. I know there might be some people. I was raised under George Bush, so I say that word wrong, but, um, you know, nuclear worship and all of this.

[02:15:11] Logan: Yeah.

[02:15:12] Adam: Mutant shit that happens at the end of the movie is interesting. It just takes a dog shit. Uninspired.

[02:15:19] Logan: Yeah.

[02:15:20] Adam: Take until you get to that.

[02:15:22] Logan: I think the franchise will always have to have that battle constantly in a cultural sense of making people, reminding people that, like, while the effects are state of the art, and it’s one of the reasons why you should see these films, the reason why the franchise, it.

[02:15:36] Adam: Is never the focus.

[02:15:38] Logan: The reason why this franchise is nearly six decades old is because when you have 1968, when you have the most interesting aspects and you commit to those aspects, that’s when the movies have a longevity that go past even great effects in that regard, where it’s like, I think dawn, you know, Don’s effects will always stand the test of time in a way that I think, you know, will make the film, you know, just remarkable. Ten years, 20 years down the line. But it’s really this Warwill too. And it’s the thematic elements and the interesting ideas that really keep it going and make it go like, ah, shit, maybe I should watch more.

[02:16:16] Adam: For most people, each one of these new movies says something.

[02:16:19] Logan: Yeah.

[02:16:20] Adam: And each of those original movies said something. Even the ones that weren’t good, they said something. You look at rise of the planet, the apes. What does it say? It’s like maybe we shouldn’t fuck with nature too much. Maybe. Maybe we shouldn’t abuse our closest cousins. Maybe we shouldn’t test on them in the brutal forms that we do. Dawn of the plan the apes has a very far more biblical aspect. Maybe, you know, it has to do with, like, lying to each other, misunderstandings that lead to conflict. It’s very blunt, that war, the plan the apes, shows that nobody wins in this. Nobody wins in a war of the planet. I mean, yeah, your ideas versus our ideas. It’s very blunt.

We can’t do that. It’s going to lead to our own destruction.

[02:17:25] Logan: Scariest thing about war of, just, like, even if you’re right, I gotta dig my heels. I gotta commit.

[02:17:32] Adam: Like, it’s because you want to kill me.

[02:17:35] Logan: Yeah.

[02:17:36] Adam: You wanna kill me, and you wanna kill myself. Family, why would I ever flinch from this? Even if you’ve got, hey, we created you, and we have the right to destroy you.

There’s a whole colonial aspect you can have in there too. Like, we created your government. We created the way that you interact with one another. We have the right to dictate how you live and die. That’s. That’s terrifying.

[02:18:06] Logan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Serkis Planet of the Apes trilogy rips. It’s a great trilogy. I really watch it.

[02:18:14] Adam: If you haven’t watched, I don’t know why you’re listening to this, but I mean, watch it.

[02:18:19] Logan: Thank you. Still listening, for sure.

[02:18:22] Adam: But, I mean, it’s. It’s. It is consistently stated as of now, thankfully, because people finally give it its due. It is one of the best. If not, I don’t know.

It’s not the best, but it’s one of the best trilogies of this, you know, century.

[02:18:46] Logan: I mean. Yeah.

[02:18:48] Adam: Thematically, it vibes so hard with itself.

[02:18:53] Logan: It’s. Yeah.

[02:18:54] Adam: I can really only think of, like, off the top of my head. I mean, of my own media literacy.

[02:19:02] Logan: Cars.

[02:19:03] Adam: Yeah, cars. Cars.

[02:19:06] Logan: And then lord of the Rings, which we’ve discussed both. Not both. We’ve discussed the Hobbit on it’s cars.

[02:19:11] Adam: Is the best trilogy of the. Of, you know, the 20th century. 21st century.

[02:19:17] Logan: Yeah.

[02:19:18] Adam: Lord of the Rings. And then it’s apes.

Clerks isn’t all in this century.

[02:19:25] Andy: Yeah, but if, you know, it finishes with a bang in this century.

[02:19:29] Adam: That’s a good point.

Logan, you fucking love that movie.

I hate Kevin Smith. Is that his name? Yeah, because Kevin James is Paul Blair.

[02:19:45] Andy: Right.

[02:19:46] Adam: Kevin Smith. Kevin Smith is a dog shit director.

[02:19:51] Logan: This fucking happened with our hobbit.

[02:19:53] Andy: Well, he’s getting brought it up to get Kevin Smith is getting the next Apes trilogy.

[02:19:57] Logan: I hear it’s called Clerks of Planet Eve.

No, I mean, it’s funny too, because, like you, there are some Smith films you would like. Definitely Adam. But I also understand.

[02:20:08] Adam: I don’t want to hear it. You’re not talking about.

[02:20:10] Logan: I know.

[02:20:10] Adam: We’re talking about plan of the apes. This is my, this is my world. This is my planet. I don’t want to hear anything about that tusk producing yoga hosers. He didn’t even make his jaws moose film because everybody hates him and he sucks in making movies. Yeah, no, I’m gonna be blunt. I’m gonna be juvenile. Nobody likes him. He hasn’t made anything. That’s good. I hate him. But here’s what I will say. Matt Reeves, I love you. I love you. I love you so much.

[02:20:45] Logan: You can tell how long we’ve been.

[02:20:46] Adam: Going with this podcast because I’m a bit slap happy. But I meant every. I meant every goddamn word I said.

[02:20:53] Logan: Slap happy. Andy was chimped out, I think, 15 minutes ago. And then as soon as I saw the light in your eyes when you said clerks for best trilogy, you came back to life. And then it just, you just got me. I deflated so hard talking about, about that. I mean, yeah, like the play of the Apes trilogy.

I’m trying to get this. I’m trying to write myself.

[02:21:13] Adam: No, just after all that is like, yeah, no, but you know, clerks, I.

[02:21:18] Logan: Can’T fucking edit that, right?

But I mean, yeah, it is. Of all the things, if you’ve always been on the fence about these films, not saying it’s not understandable, I get it. But I’m telling you, you should definitely give them a watch because. Because if you’re one of those people where it’s like, I like good Sci-Fi I like good movies. Hell, I like good blockbusters. If you’re like, they don’t make good studio movies anymore. These fucking films are great. And even its weakest film is still incredibly, vastly interesting. More interesting than you’d expect.

[02:21:48] Adam: A culture cultural moment too.

[02:21:50] Logan: Yeah, I mean, it’s literally, they made three films about dudes in gray pajamas. And it’s harrowing, well done, dramatic in the best way, and created the second best play of the apes film in the franchise, in my opinion. Second and third with being Don being the second best and war being the third best. Like, they basically came back. Yeah, clerks being, being the best of the play of the apes. But, yeah, that is the Andy Serkis Planet of the Apes Trilogy! And our next trilogy has nothing to do with apes of any way, shape, or form.

[02:22:25] Adam: That’s why I won’t.

I don’t. I don’t give a damn about anything that doesn’t have a goddamn ape.

[02:22:32] Logan: There are three things that Adam wants to talk about incessantly, and that’s Hobbits, Bionicles, and Andy Serkis apes.

[02:22:38] Andy: Yeah. So whenever we have another trilogy of that subject matter, which has all three, we’ll get him on.

[02:22:42] Adam: Or if Henry Cavill makes a Warhammer film trilogy, which he won’t, because you know how Snyder buried that man.

[02:22:52] Andy: Well let’s just speed-round here. What is some other interest we could mine from you for a trilogy?

[02:23:02] Adam: Oh, there are some–I think, another one that I think I’ve really pushed for you since the early days is the animated Lord of the Rings trilogy, which would be the 1977 The Hobbit, and then Ralph Bakshi’s Lord of the Rings, and then Rankin Bass’s Return of the King.

[02:23:34] Logan: Yeah, that’s been on the list for a bit, too. Yeah. I think we wanted to get Hobbit out. The Hobbit was the one where, like.

[02:23:41] Adam: That would be one.

[02:23:43] Logan: Yeah.

[02:23:43] Adam: Cause honestly, what else can I think of? I mean, Star Wars stuff.

[02:23:48] Andy: Yeah. There’s obviously.

[02:23:49] Adam: It’s too mainstream.

[02:23:50] Andy: Sure.

[02:23:51] Adam: I mean, come on. Um. I mean, there are plenty of little niche things that I like that if you come adjacent to them, I might rear.

[02:24:04] Andy: Animated LOTR is a good one to drop, though.

[02:24:07] Logan: Yes. And that’s one that’s like. Yeah. Honestly, dude, with the animated Lord of the Rings film coming out in the next year or so, like, we’ll probably do it.

[02:24:17] Adam: Oh, yeah, the Rohirrim one.

[02:24:21] Logan: Yeah. Perfect time to bring that up.

But, yeah, no, I transition into our next trilogy because it is going to be out June 1st, if I remember correctly.

[02:24:30] Andy: Yeah.

[02:24:30] Logan: And it is going to be vastly different than this one.

[02:24:35] Andy: Yeah. This will be one of our kind of self-curated trilogies.

[02:24:39] Logan: This is one that I think you created initially. And we were like, ah, shit. This is gonna be fun. Because we keep. We, while we’re not doing a Freakquel on this film, because it’s not tied to anything else, it is a new release tied to two other films. We wanted to do something with our friend Austin Webster that we unfortunately couldn’t release initially with the Monkeybone episode.

[02:25:02] Andy: He was the guest on that fateful episode, yeah.

[02:25:04] Logan: Which is sad, because there’s some wild shit that was said on that episode that I remember that I was like, I can’t wait to hear that again.

[02:25:11] Andy: I’m sure this episode will be just as unhinged.

[02:25:13] Logan: Oh, absolutely. Well, it’s two-plus hours.

[02:25:17] Adam: You’d hope so.

[02:25:18] Logan: But, yeah, we’ll just cut right into it. Our next trilogy is the animated Chris Pratt trilogy.

[02:25:24] Andy: Yeah, it’s Chris Pratt’s Animated IP Dynasty—because for some reason, Hollywood has decided that Chris Pratt is the go-to man for the job when you’ve got an animated, IP-related film that needs a main character. So what do we have? We’ve got The Lego Movie from 2014,

[02:25:49] Adam: Decade old.

[02:25:50] Andy: Yep. The Super Mario Bros. Movie, which was last year, and now this year, new release, we’ve got The Garfield Movie.

[02:25:58] Logan: Garfield movie. Yeah.

[02:26:00] Andy: Three iconic properties made into animated movies.

[02:26:09] Adam: I could do a Garfield trilogy. I mean, so many different takes. You could do Garfield and His Nine Lives. Here Comes Garfield—the original, man.

[02:26:17] Andy: I would kind of like to revisit some of those old ones.

[02:26:24] Adam: Oh, so you have seen Here Comes Garfield, the first one Lorenzo Music voiced.

[02:26:30] Andy: Correct.

[02:26:32] Logan: That’s gonna be fun.

[02:26:32] Andy: That’s a deep dive. Yeah.

[02:26:34] Adam: You’re more of a Calvin and Hobbs guy, right Logan?

[02:26:38] Logan: No, I like Scrooged.

[02:26:42] Adam: What’s the, what’s, what’s. What’s the dude. What’s the dude on the military base? Beagle and something? That dumbass.

[02:26:56] Andy: Racking my brain for that.

[02:26:58] Adam: But yeah, no, Garfield.

[02:27:03] Logan: I can jokingly say I’m a Heathcliff fan, but I don’t know a fucking thing about Heathcliff other than he exists.

[02:27:10] Adam: He’s worse. I’ll say it.

[02:27:12] Logan: I mean. I mean, yeah, he’s not Garfield. So already, just from that point forward.

[02:27:16] Adam: He’s just, dude, I’m not Garfield. And I’m worse for it.

[02:27:21] Logan: But yeah, we are basically talking about three massive IPs in their own shape and form, just discussing the vastly different amount of performances, we imagine, by the time this comes out.

[02:27:34] Andy: Yes. The “wild range” of performances Chris Pratt offers.

[02:27:38] Logan: The craziest thing about these three films is that these are three huge IPs and even The Lego Movie. His character, Emmett, is not like the mascot of Lego. He’s still basically playing fucking Lego. Like, just. Just the. The embodiment of the creativity surrounding it. He is the lead of that. He is playing that as well as one of the biggest iconic video game characters of all time.

[02:27:58] Andy: And one of the most iconic video game voices of all time.

[02:28:01] Adam: “Mushroom Kingdom, here we come!”

[02:28:04] Logan: And then speaking of, like, Lorenzo music as well as, even though they’re not.

[02:28:08] Andy: Great films, Bill Murray.

[02:28:09] Logan: Bill Murray version of Bill Garfield. It is just fascinating to be like, you know, who could do that somewhat? Chris Pratt.

[02:28:16] Andy: Exactly. And we’re gonna explore just why.

[02:28:19] Logan: Just why. And we’re gonna let probably Austin have his Kevin Smith clerk’s rant at some point just to talk about.

[02:28:26] Adam: I was in a rant. I only did it for like a minute, dude.

[02:28:30] Andy: He could have given us a half hour.

[02:28:32] Logan: It felt it was a quick one, but at the moment it was just.

[02:28:35] Adam: Like, you’ll edit it out anyway. You won’t do a bitch.

[02:28:38] Logan: I’m not gonna edit it out. None of this is getting edited.

[02:28:44] Adam: You know, like, usually when you wanna end a podcast being like, and then we’re gonna talk about Garfield and Chris Bradley, and then I’m like, no, motherfucker.

[02:28:53] Logan: We’re gonna talk about Garfield and Lorenzo.

[02:28:56] Andy: Music at this point is long enough. Logan’s not even gonna edit it. It’s too big a beast. Too big a beast.

[02:29:05] Adam: Genuinely.

[02:29:07] Andy: Which is why you’ve had. We’ve had you on three times.

[02:29:10] Logan: Just. I think. I think it might have been the point. We were talking about Woody Harrelson shooting himself in the head that I realized, I don’t know how the fuck we’re gonna transition into an animated at the very end.

[02:29:22] Adam: Wait, did you mention what I was. I mean, was taking a piss there?

[02:29:24] Logan: Yes.

[02:29:25] Adam: We talked about how he shot his head.

[02:29:27] Logan: Yeah. Like, I was like, very grim. We’re ending on such a very grim film running. It’s gonna have to be why you laughed at it just being like, well.

[02:29:35] Andy: Next trilogy, one for the family.

[02:29:40] Logan: One for the family. Yeah. It’s gonna still be an explicit.

[02:29:43] Andy: I don’t think we had a single episode that wasn’t how.

[02:29:47] Logan: The question is because I think in Monkey Bone, 911 was referenced how many times?

[02:29:50] Andy: They were all Austin, I think.

[02:29:53] Logan: Which is surprising, knowing you. You gave me. You just gave me a little side eye when you said that.

[02:29:58] Andy: I know. I’ve referenced it on another episode.

[02:30:00] Adam: Where was Brendan Fraser when the tower.

[02:30:02] Andy: That’s what he looked like.

[02:30:04] Logan: Oh, my God.

[02:30:05] Adam: Have you ever seen Brendan Fraser and Osama bin Laden in the room at the same time?

[02:30:09] Logan: No. I haven’t seen Ryan Gosling in that room either.

[02:30:12] Adam: Shit. It was literally me.

[02:30:14] Andy: Ladies and gentlemen, we got. All right, this is.

[02:30:16] Logan: This is.

[02:30:17] Adam: You’ll edit it out. Eventually.

[02:30:21] Andy: It’S all in. This is like, our longest special episode.

[02:30:27] Logan: I was just about to fucking say if it wasn’t a non top ten.

[02:30:30] Adam: Episode, the fans will be shaking when they see the length of this one.

[02:30:35] Logan: At this point, if anyone listens to this episode and says, I really like that part when you talk about this, I’ve probably already forgotten there’s so much to talk about here. But yeah, listen. On June 1, our first episode of June is going to be Chris Pratt’s Animated IP Dynasty: The Lego Movie, The Super Mario Bros Movie, and The Garfield Movie. So tune in for that with our special guest, Austin Webster. But until then, I’m Logan Sowash.

[02:30:59] Andy: And I’m Andy Carr.

[02:31:01] Logan: Thank you so much for listening. Bye.

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Wishes he could forego sleep to watch more movies. Besides co-hosting Odd Trilogies and writing reviews, Andy builds Gundam models, loves on his three cats, and spends way too much time managing his Plex server. You can follow his movie-watching habits on Letterboxd.

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Freelance writer out of Indianapolis. Co-host of Odd Trilogies podcast. Whether it's films or television, I'm always down to watch!

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